Pro's & Con's

[SimonG]

Ray,

In response to you post...I would have to say that is the most derogatory post towards plumbers I have seen on this forum.

I honestly thought you had a higher opinion of Plumbers.

I also thought that promoting the qualifications and skills of plumbers might help you and the organisation you work for ( or own? ).

'Trade only' I can only gather from your post that means anyone walking through the door.

Would it not be beneficial to you and the company to promote and elevate the profile of Plumbers?

You mention 'Joe Public' and his thoughts.
Well 'Joe Public' can kiss me where the sun don't shine.
Joe Public can do what he wants, but over here he does plumbing work - in any form - and stuffs up, he will not have insurance cover and be prosecuted.

I hope I have interpreted you post wrong, because if I was one of you regulars, I would show you the same disregard as you have shown the Plumbing Industry.

I think your post is demeaning to the Trade and profession.

Oz Plumber

Funny but i didnt read Rays post like that.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Ray,

In response to you post...I would have to say that is the most derogatory post towards plumbers I have seen on this forum.

I honestly thought you had a higher opinion of Plumbers.

I also thought that promoting the qualifications and skills of plumbers might help you and the organisation you work for ( or own? ).

'Trade only' I can only gather from your post that means anyone walking through the door.

Would it not be beneficial to you and the company to promote and elevate the profile of Plumbers?

You mention 'Joe Public' and his thoughts.
Well 'Joe Public' can kiss me where the sun don't shine.
Joe Public can do what he wants, but over here he does plumbing work - in any form - and stuffs up, he will not have insurance cover and be prosecuted.

I hope I have interpreted you post wrong, because if I was one of you regulars, I would show you the same disregard as you have shown the Plumbing Industry.

I think your post is demeaning to the Trade and profession.

Oz Plumber

Hi Oz

I'm confused. What did I say that was derogatory?

I have spent almost my entire working life supplying materials to plumbers, and the one thing I can tell you for absolute certain is that there no such thing as an average "plumber". There are a full range of human beings, skilled and less skilled, polite and rude, reliable and haphazard, honest and dishonest, good looking and ugly, who happen to make their living working with pipes, valves, fluids and gases.

You will find me on this board and elsewhere regularly extolling the virtues of hiring a skilled professional.

But the fact that I believe that it is normally better to hire a professional skilled person is a very long way from believing that it should be against the law to make a different choice. Living in a free country is about making choices - including the right to make choices that you or I might disagree with.

Its appropriate for the state to intervene in those choices ONLY when the dangers are potentially catastrophic, which is why we regulate things like pharmaceuticals, firearms and explosives, and regulate trades and professions like medecine and gas fitting. But it is nonsense to compare the negative consequences of unlicenced plumbing with those of unlicenced medical practice.

Its not freedom if people are only free to do what you want.

And if you think that you ought to have the right to introduce regulations against the public will, and that the ordinary man in the street can kiss your bum, then I wish you well, but I prefer to live in a democracy where the laws have the support of the public.

And remember, in plumbing, we are the professionals, and everyone else is "joe public". But what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so when every other trade and profession seeks to regulate and protect their industry, I presume you will be content to pucker up - because you are Joe Public to them.

 

[Ermintrude]

Be nice if the state did actually intervene? GS have no backbone. Unless your registered they ask you to join and that's it. HSE got no money for investigations or prescriptions so the just make leaflets and smile.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Be nice if the state did actually intervene? GS have no backbone. Unless your registered they ask you to join and that's it. HSE got no money for investigations or prescriptions so the just make leaflets and smile.

This is the part that gets me. There is a good case for intervening in enforcing gas safety, but having passed the law, we then dont enforce it. Pathetic.

 

[Millsy 82]

Be nice if the state did actually intervene? GS have no backbone. Unless your registered they ask you to join and that's it. HSE got no money for investigations or prescriptions so the just make leaflets and smile.

It's a shame they don't pay for the enforcement through the fines. Some of the fines handed out are stupid. I think I read somebody doing illegal gas work for at least 10 years £5000 it should be 10 times that anybody gas safe would probably pay more over that 10 years registering re-training etc. if it costs £1000 to investigate some one then add that to the fine then they could investigate some more! (Or is that how they do it now?)

 

[stevetheplumber]

what gas safe needs is some powers to investigate without being called in they could start with this beauty

 

[Ermintrude]

No it's capita so an investigation is going to cost 5 zillion dollars.?

 

[lame plumber]

easiest form of control is to prohibit sale of oil/gas items to unregistered persons, but that would upset big companies ie BnQ etc and they have a large voice in government, we don't despite what ciphe etc say

 

[Ermintrude]

People will just buy it from some one. , plus will make stuff more expensive as closed market

 

[Ray Stafford]

easiest form of control is to prohibit sale of oil/gas items to unregistered persons, but that would upset big companies ie BnQ etc and they have a large voice in government, we don't despite what ciphe etc say

I hear this a lot, but it isn't true. It would be very far from easy.

All gas appliances have been bought and sold at least once before an engineer gets his hands on it. In many cases they have been sold three times or more. So you have to register AND regulate every merchant, showroom, distributor etc. I estimate that there are, on average, probably 1.5 to 2 sales in the supply chain for every 1 sale of the sort that you think would be "easy" to regulate.

Secondly, its not B&Q that are selling gas appliances in volume to unregistered people. Truly retail sales of gas appliances are trivially small. Its plumb centre, grahams, and indeed us who are selling to unregistered purchasers. Millions of appliances are bought every year by perfectly legitimate buyers - hospitals, housing associations, councils, governement departments, schools, hotel chains, big builders etc, who wouldn't dream of fitting it illegally, but don't want to be forced to pay the installers mark up - and why should they? I can see why registered engineers would like to monopolise those sales, but it would just be rent-seeking of the worst possible kind.

Setting up a point-of-sale regulatory system would be neither cheap nor easy. And it wouldn't stop some registered but irresponsible fitter from selling them out of the back of his van for a tenner mark up.

By far the cheapest and easiest thing would be to properly prosecute the next 50 or so "hall of shame" cases, and dole out a bit of high-profile jail time