open flued appliances

[stevetheplumber]

it seems strange we eradicated the open flued water heater 20 years ago does anyone else feel its time for open flued boilers to follow them onto the scrap pile ? i think there are a decreasing number of installers who are realy competent to work on these now and it will get worse as some one said in another post a lot of installers will test one open flue every 5 years at the training center is this man realy competent ? repertition is the only way we realy learn
it wouldnt look good in court when the qc asked
" just how many times have you carried out a flue test ?"
"er two my lord fast track course four years ago and this one "

 

[mountainman]

Being trained is one thing and of course repetition keeps the training fresh.
But being experienced should mean having the skills, doocuments and ability to refresh your memory on site.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Still plenty of open flued water heaters about in caravans. Loads of open flued warm air units and gas fires about.

Perhaps there needs to be a seperate ticket to enable you to work on open flued stuff so that the boiler bashers etc. don't need to bother.

 

[SimonJohns]

I still fit open flue water heaters.

I think it a far better system. Ok it's not as efficient but it doesn't fail in the same way a modern boiler does. Very cheap to maintain and lasts very long.

 

[CES]

I regularly see a lot of open-flued boilers in my area, lots of bermuda back boilers etc.. in both privately owned and let properties. The OF boiler is here for a while yet but I agree that guys who maybe don't see them between taking their ACS would probably struggle. Maybe it is time for competences to be looked at depending on what work you do. Being self employed I "enjoy"(ok maybe not the right word) a variety of work which keeps me on my toes but some guys may not see an OF appliance at all.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Another ticket Mike ?? are you running a training center ?? lol :deal:

 

[kirkgas]

Still plenty of open flued water heaters about in caravans. Loads of open flued warm air units and gas fires about.

Perhaps there needs to be a seperate ticket to enable you to work on open flued stuff so that the boiler bashers etc. don't need to bother.

i know people dont want to do extra ACS, but i have said for years a service guy and installer are not the same guy (with some exceptions) so i would suit to have CEN1 (for RS boilers) and CEN2 (for OF boilers) to allow people to concentrate on what they do best, ok a lot of guys will need both but there isnt a perfect answer to any question, a lot of re-assessment guys with 10-15+ years experience are absolutely shocking at flue flow, spillage and flue faults, because they dont do it

 

[jtsplumbing]

So why not split ACS into one for installations and one for service/repair ??

 

[tamz]

I don't agree with splitting ACS up any more than they are just because someone hasn't seen an OF appliance other than in a training centre.
How many have a ticket for fires and don't fit them? It must be over 2 years since i've fitted one. How many have a cooker ticket and know how to repair or service one? How many with a warm air ticket even know how they work? How many have used trac pipe? etc etc.
The ACS are a generisation of all things we may encounter and teach very little. We all know being allegedly competent has nothing to do with your actual ability other than your ability to pay. Splitting it further just means another cost.
Perhaps what they should teach and drum it in, is regardless of being competent, if you are not confident in what you are doing leave it to someone who is.

 

[quality]

I have install loads of stuff over the years but the only thing I have on my ticket/card is boilers.
purely because there is gas in the house i am working in
I specialize in renewable and have done for over 15 years.
Gas is good but gas trade has gone.
Heatpumps are the future
Like it or lump it

it is a fact

 

[andyh1988]

I agree with quality, heat pumps have been becoming very popular over the past 2/3 years. Im at the point now where we have 1 heat pump installation every month, doesnt sound much but compared to 2009...

 

[Bernie2]

Splitting it any more than it is, would mean perhaps 1,000 separate certificates at about £100 a pop, I want to go back to being a trainer again you can make a fortune. What after that? A separate certificate required for every different make and model of boiler or gas fire a manufacturer makes? You might get enough of them if you studied for a thousand years perhaps,but how much paid work would you have been able to do while your studying?

Lets be honest you should be able to work out from what you know about gas technology how a gas fire and flue works? And you do have the GR, MI, BS and BR to help you.

But shouting ACS is not really helpful as ACS are only like driving tests they do not teach you to drive.

 

[kirkgas]

I've said for tears that there should be cen1 & cen2 for room sealed and open flued then people have a choice as they know their workload, service guys would need both (or a combined one, as we have at the moment) and this isn't about money as I would price the 3 if them the same, and I know plenty who would still only take the RS version as that's what they are comfortable with, it is too extreme banning OF boilers because if people's lack of experience, they are the most simple straight forward appliance on the market, but I speak with years of experience and many thousands of services on them, and because I'm experienced and competent i guarantee to do a safe job on it, ok they aren't as efficient but that's not what the original post was about, and I do advocate CO alarms, perfect as I may be I can't help a flue blockage etc so extra cover from CO alarm, how many people a year die from CO. from OF appliances? Remember the shambles that is being caused by TB008 came from shoddy installs on RS boilers so lets keep things in perspective and alter the base ACS to be RS or OF. or combined if the guy wants it, let's the half decent guys get through without the 5 year panic attack,

 

[Bernie2]

One of the problems is that ACS are not only design for those who are self employed and can decide their own workload. Many employed gas fitters are probably asked by their companies to have all the ACS in domestic, regardless of whether the company actually works on OF appliances. In that event an operative may only use their OF ACS once in five years or not at all. The companies want their operatives to have it of course, for it then allows the company to bid for work of any type.

But lets be honest if you only did one OF appliance once in five years could you remember all the tests, or it it more probable you would have forgotten some of them? W

hat do you do then? Look it up in your text books of course? But do you need an ACS to remind you to do that? You should be able to read and follow the guidance and instructions in the MI and the likes and coupled with your underlying understanding of gas technology be able to work it out for yourself.

Mind you an ACS or similar test as part of the general ACS would find out if you knew how to do it? But after 5 years would you have remembered it?

 

[Mike Jackson]

You've also got to look at the boiler bashers who only fit new stuff. Why would they need to know about OF appliances? A lot of large firms want their operatives to have the minimum necessary qualifications.

If OF appliances were a separate category more time could be spent on training those who didn't come across them very often.

It always surprises me when the posts pop up on here like "I've got to service a back boiler, how do I do it?" etc. From this sort of question it is obvious that not enough time is spent training people on OF appliances because there is nothing to a back boiler, it's just different to what a lot of people are used to.

 

[mike-c]

I used to love getting sent out to service OF back boilers. There was next to nothing in them that could go wrong. Nowadays you need a masters degree just to take the front panel off of some combi's.

 

[Bernie2]

Funnily enough most companies I worked for wanted you to have the full set of certificates. Usually before they would start you. Most of them you may never use, depending on what work the company got in.


As to installation bashing, fair enough you might be able to put a combi in in your sleep, but you are no less responsible for its proper workings than a repair guy. Its just that its assumed on new work everything is done to standard and you don't have to check so much. Admittedly when on installation there is no great need to know how to repair a boiler, you just call out the manufacturer if its still under guarantee. But you have to check site conditions are okay before installation. One assumes of course with everything being new they will be, but an old hand will tell you different. Rubbish in the gas meter filters, gas lines chocked or squashed, water supplies blocked, loads of problems. What you do not usually get on installation work is a range of different appliances. And fitting can become none challenging and boring the only satisfaction you get is how fast you can do a job?

I much prefer repair its more challenging, I liked the thrill of not knowing what was coming next, but have done both.

 

[R1CKY]

Personally I'd like to see the ACS exams made harder. I was on the course with some worryingly stupid people. Including one guy who thought everything was a thermocouple. Every single one of them passed.

If someone doesn't have the brain power to look at an open flued appliance and think "how do I make sure this isn't spilling" or "how do I check the flue is carrying POC effectively to atmosphere" then should they really be working on gas?

 

[Mike Jackson]

I think that has more to do with the training/assessment centre than the level of difficulty. I attended one whilst employed and you were effectively guided through the assessments.The centre I normally use is a lot stricter and will refer people for more training if they aren't capable of performing the tasks.

 

[R1CKY]

I suppose you're right, the exams were pretty testing. It was extremely difficult to fail though, as you said, the ones struggling were pretty much spoon fed the answers until they got them right!