New Boiler installation

[sp25]

Dear all,
My boiler has given up few months ago and urgently in need of a new boiler. It'a very big decision as its a huge amount and i want to be able to install a reliable one. Having suffered with no heating/hot water i am very cautious esp as i have a little baby.

I have narrowed it down to Baxi platinum HE28 A. It was a tough choice between Baxi, Vaillant Ecotech Pro & Vaillant Ecotech Plus.

I am not sure which is the best as there seems to be lots of brands and also mixed opinions. However, I was hoping you could share your expert opinions please.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Has any one been to survey your house ? Had any quotes ? or are you doing the job yourself, ? look at your hot water use age will the 28 give you the amount of hot water you use, not a great difference in price between the 28 & 33 Platinum, if your after a long warranty go for the Baxi, But other boilers now offering long warranty's, but it will depend if installer is on company's list of recommended engineer's, As for opinion's on witch boiler we all favour different makes, so you will get different answers, are you on Natural or LPG gas ?

 

[SimonG]

Having read your other post, have you had a gsr look at your boiler, rather than an electrician?

As for new boiler, get minimum of three estimates and go from there.

 

[Ermintrude]

Baxi every time

 

[sp25]

Has any one been to survey your house ? Had any quotes ? or are you doing the job yourself, ? look at your hot water use age will the 28 give you the amount of hot water you use, not a great difference in price between the 28 & 33 Platinum, if your after a long warranty go for the Baxi, But other boilers now offering long warranty's, but it will depend if installer is on company's list of recommended engineer's, As for opinion's on witch boiler we all favour different makes, so you will get different answers, are you on Natural or LPG gas ?

Thanks Simon, Ermintrude & jtsplumbing,
Yes we had a boiler installation company who helped me do an initial gas safety testing do us a quote. As its a 2BR/1Bath property they recommended Glowworm flexicom cxi24 and Vaillant Pro24. Another company I found on an online forum also did a quote after visit and they gave me a lot of options at a reasonable price too. One of the options is a Baxi.

I spoke to both Vaillant and Baxi and found it took me 45 minutes to get to Vaillant/Glowworm and they didn't seem keen to answer my queries. Baxi on the other hand took less than 10 minutes and i called them about four times each time when i had a new query and they were amazingly helpful. This was one of the reasons in addition to the 10yr guarantee i felt swayed towards Baxi rather than Vaillant.

So jtsplumbing, do I require Platinum 33 for my flat size(2BR+1Bath) - 6 radiators + 2 sinks. Have a baby so boiler needs to be reliable and not much hassle with organising call out/service etc., We are on Mains gas., boiler is for central heating plus hot water.

If Baxi Platinum, have you seen any faults with them recently? I was told by Baxi technical team that the Duotec?? is similar to platinum but it has metal components instead of plastic and perhaps more reliable...but it has lesser warranty (7 years).

I want less hassle of course but also the longest guarantee possible. I even read somewhere that there are 15 year guarantee on some products...but dont know where and what the catch is and even what make it is! ;-)

I am also hoping that Baxi Customer services will remain same for the whole guarantee period and they wont fob me off if something breaks 6 years down the line!

thanks,

 

[julesverne]

Out of those mentioned baxi

 

[Rickster123]

Are you absolutely sure your existing boiler is past saving? What do you currently have?

 

[Nostrum]

Ideal Vogue every time.

Similar to a Vaillant in design but better value. More economical then any of the above. 10 year warranty and it looks pretty.

Bigger isn't always better, especially for combi's. The difference between a 28kw and a 24kw as far as hot water is concerned is about 2 mins longer to run a full (100 litre) bath, assuming you add no cold. The difference is the bigger the boiler the less chance you have of reducing short cycling on heating.

Hot water = approx 30% of your fuel bill
Heating = approx 70%

So the savings are in the heating and the way the system is designed, not how fast you can run a hot tap.

For a few extra quid you could add weather compensation and further increase the efficiency.

 

[newcastle phill]

I do like the vogue.
Just put a vaillant ecotec in.
Not bad not bad.

But one consideration that must be considered.......warranty !

Historically if your the sort who doesnt get things serviced every year to save a few quid (which loads of people do )

Simply forget about the warranty and get a logic instead.

A large proportion of the cost of the boiler is the manufacturers built in cost to warranty risk.

So naturally they charge more for a 10 year than a 7 year than a 5 year.
Yes the boilers arent like for like.

But my point is skimp on servicing - forget warranty as a deal breaker

 

[stevetheplumber]

difference between a 24kw and a 28 is hotter water when its cold outside

 

[Nostrum]

It's both if want to be pedantic. They are relative and also the reason most boilers have flow restrictors in them. There is no boiler on the market that can change the rules of physics.

Not being funny, but britony 2T multipoints are 24kW and they were great little water heaters.

 

[Ermintrude]

But they are only 68% efficient

 

[Rabbitman]

For quality build its got to be Vaillant, 7 yrs warranty on the plus range........ Only downside the after sales service is naff

 

[Nostrum]

Which would mean that in comparison the hot water performance of a new condensing combi would be even better.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Ideal Vogue every time.

Similar to a Vaillant in design but better value. More economical then any of the above. 10 year warranty and it looks pretty.

Bigger isn't always better, especially for combi's. The difference between a 28kw and a 24kw as far as hot water is concerned is about 2 mins longer to run a full (100 litre) bath, assuming you add no cold. The difference is the bigger the boiler the less chance you have of reducing short cycling on heating.

Hot water = approx 30% of your fuel bill
Heating = approx 70%

So the savings are in the heating and the way the system is designed, not how fast you can run a hot tap.

For a few extra quid you could add weather compensation and further increase the efficiency.

Don't the baxi modulate down more than the vogue

 

[sp25]

Test Message as my post seems disappearing!

 

[sp25]

Are you absolutely sure your existing boiler is past saving? What do you currently have?

I doubt its past saving. I reckon a new PCB or a good Gas engineer can get it up and running for a fraction of the cost which I would seriously consider.

Also, is it normal for an installation company to demand that the old boiler would be their property after the new one is installed. Mine seems to have quoted so and I reckon it is fixable/worth then?

I don't particularly want them to fob me off with installing a new one if they could have their hands on my old one...i dislike this idea!

Please advice..

 

[bigads28]

Test Message as my post seems disappearing!

They are moderated for your first 10 post, they will appear soon don't worry.

 

[dmheat]

I doubt its past saving. I reckon a new PCB or a good Gas engineer can get it up and running for a fraction of the cost which I would seriously consider.

Also, is it normal for an installation company to demand that the old boiler would be their property after the new one is installed. Mine seems to have quoted so and I reckon it is fixable/worth then?

I don't particularly want them to fob me off with installing a new one if they could have their hands on my old one...i dislike this idea!

Please advice..

Officially I believe, any "waste" created by said tradesperson, needs to be disposed of correctly and via a licenced waste carrier. Might you be confusing this with them seeming to want to claim ownership of your old boiler?

I really doubt they'll repair it and sell it on and/or install it. More hassle than it's worth and difficult to test if not connected to anything.

 

[Ermintrude]

The duo TEC can't get near to vogue on modulation. But it has 7 years on it in terms of reliability

 

[sp25]

Officially I believe, any "waste" created by said tradesperson, needs to be disposed of correctly and via a licenced waste carrier. Might you be confusing this with them seeming to want to claim ownership of your old boiler?

I really doubt they'll repair it and sell it on and/or install it. More hassle than it's worth and difficult to test if not connected to anything.

That's true..When you present it like that may be i wont feel fobbed off although still reluctant to let them take the old boiler! Now i know why i need to declutter! ;-)

 

[dmheat]

They're definately not fobbing you off, in fact they're probably more likely doing you a favour by taking a broken heavy old boiler away for you. You don't wanna get lumbered with it, your local dump might not accept it either as it's obviously not waste created by diy lol. Part of the reason you see boilers left out the front of houses for travellers to pick up,or left in peoples back gardens for years

 

[hammers4spanner]

The duo TEC can't get near to vogue on modulation. But it has 7 years on it in terms of reliability

What does the vogue modulate down to?
Baxi goes down to 2.5 kw that's what they are bragging , thought that was pretty decent

 

[dmheat]

What does the vogue modulate down to?
Baxi goes down to 2.5 kw that's what they are bragging , thought that was pretty decent

Lowest min on the duotec/platinum he A is 7kw and that's on the 24kw (dhw max input net) model.

Im not gonna mention the boiler I think you might be referring to...they all need ripping out

 

[hammers4spanner]

Unless I'm mistaken they said platinum goes down to 2.5

They "other" apperantly was made for certain market

 

[newcastle phill]

No it goes down to about 7kw min

 

[Ermintrude]

Nope duo He and plat HE as as follows

24kw to 7.4
28kw to 9.5
33kw to 10.2
40kw to 12.1

Now the best modulation is on an icoz. It will go from 35kw all the way down to 1.1kw
Unfortunately it flashes LF a lot an has a black pcb........

The vogue is 14:1

 

[hammers4spanner]

yes was wrong its the other that modulates right down,

it also modulates right down to zero as it never flaming works

 

[Nostrum]

Vogue is 7:1

icos is 4:1 at best.

you see some (greenstar junior for example) seem to basically de rate a 28kw to make a 24, so not even 4:1.

I think vokera do a 10:1 but, well, it's a vokera.

 

[sp25]

They're definately not fobbing you off, in fact they're probably more likely doing you a favour by taking a broken heavy old boiler away for you. You don't wanna get lumbered with it, your local dump might not accept it either as it's obviously not waste created by diy lol. Part of the reason you see boilers left out the front of houses for travellers to pick up,or left in peoples back gardens for years

Thanks for clarifying. I am convinced to let them have it if so be the case. I have heard of boiler installation companies who come to repair your boiler and ask for it to be replaced saying there is a major fault with it. Then remove it and sell it off in second hand market after fixing any minor issues if it was present in the first place...;-) Hence was a bit paranoid about the idea of letting the installation company walk away with an old boiler..b'cos like most optimistic people i like to think that my boiler can be repaired and can go on for few more years if only a good gas engineer can look at it.

It's probably best we replace ours anyway as it should be atleast over 14 years old and also not very energy efficient as the new models.

 

[sp25]

Dear experts,
another problem has just arose..

as Baxi platinum HEA is a bigger model than the Glowworm 80e (dimensions unknown-not obvious from manual or anywhere online!) and also as Baxi requires 22mm pipes unlike Glowworm 80e(couldn't find any info related to this), the installer has mentioned that the installation will affect the kitchen units and they cannot guarantee it'll be saved due to the age of the units.

I wonder if you know of any Baxi models that can fit in the same dimensions pipe as Glowworm 80e? I could ask the installer what our current pipe dimensions are but cannot ring him till Monday as I don't find it fair to disturb him on the weekend when he's not at work..

My preference would be to stick to Baxi model as their CS seems good. However, if we cannot then we have to go with a Vaillant (2nd option) or Glow-worm (3rd) or consider a different brand from your expert opinions..

Thanks for mentioning about Ideal Vogue..it seems 10 year guarantee too...Is there any other reliable ones with a longer guarantee that you could recommend if there is no workable solution to the above.

thanks for your time

 

[sp25]

Vogue is 7:1

icos is 4:1 at best.

you see some (greenstar junior for example) seem to basically de rate a 28kw to make a 24, so not even 4:1.

I think vokera do a 10:1 but, well, it's a vokera.

Dear all,
Can you pls clarify what this modulation thingy is and what does the best mean in terms of modulation numbers.

Which ratio is better?

Pls explain in lay man terms as im not an expert...just a common man

thanks,

 

[sp25]

Ideal Vogue every time.

Similar to a Vaillant in design but better value. More economical then any of the above. 10 year warranty and it looks pretty.

Bigger isn't always better, especially for combi's. The difference between a 28kw and a 24kw as far as hot water is concerned is about 2 mins longer to run a full (100 litre) bath, assuming you add no cold. The difference is the bigger the boiler the less chance you have of reducing short cycling on heating.

Hot water = approx 30% of your fuel bill
Heating = approx 70%

So the savings are in the heating and the way the system is designed, not how fast you can run a hot tap.

For a few extra quid you could add weather compensation and further increase the efficiency.

thanks Nostrum, just a quick clarification regarding your suggestion.
could u pls clarify whether bigger is better if i go for Baxi platinum 28. GSR said that 24 should be sufficient for a flat size (2BR+1bath+2sinks+6radiators (double)). We don't generally use the bath, 99.9% only shower (powered by the boiler). I don't mind waiting for the hot water flow to start a few seconds later and generally the first minute or so its cold water anyway..,and the water is not metered ;-)..
Please clarify whether bigger is better in the above scenario? and if not why not pls?

im happy to invest in 33 if required (if its better efficiency in terms of heating). Thanks for the % proportion..wasn't sure how much of gas for each generally.

thanks,

 

[Ermintrude]

Ideal logic plus. Perfect size gas inlet 15mm. ( needs to be able to supply correct rate of gas) so if it's longer than 2m in 15mm u may have problems!!!!

 

[dmheat]

It's likely that whatever boiler you choose the gas pipe will need upgraded, 99% of old combis (yours being 14years old) will be on significantly undersized gas supplies.

Don't worry too much about modulation ratios,they're mainly a sales pitch. Basically a boiler with a lower ratio won't modulate as low, so as the temp rises the boiler stat will shut it off and continue to pump round. A boiler that modulates low will continue to heat at a low gas rate in order to maintain a smooth flow temp. One goes off...other burns at a lower rate for longer. Unless you are talking about large properties here the real world effect is firstly minimal, and secondly will not translate into any kind of saving...they are arguments for parts longevity etc too...personally I think when it comes to domestic boilers it's a sale ploy...

Size your combi for desired hot water flow rate....if you're getting 15lpm+ and decent pressure but fit a 24kw boiler, when you open a tap fully you will not get a satisfactory temp rise...2mins extra to run a bath is a poor example...good pressure shower with enough hot water VS good pressure shower with luke warm water is a better example.

Your installer needs to measure dynamic water pressure,standing pressure and flow rate to give you a good idea of what boiler size you need/would benefit from. Otherwise you might have to throttle down your decent flow rate, to a crap flow rate, just to get the water hot enough.

Fit a logic plus