Memory lane: When Men were Men, and Boilers ran for 30 years

[GasAt300Bar]

Memory lane: When Men were Men, and Boilers ran for 30 years

My old 1972 floor-mount boiler is on the way out. The casting's been weeping water for a 12 month now, a Potterton brick of a thing, bigger than any washing machine. A Honeywell 2 button, as an upgrade?!, not much else in it. You know the kinda thing. Running a standard 3-bed semi. 'Tis a Luvverly job. Still runs town gas I reckons It's real beauty is in its efficiency. Efficiency that is, in not blowing PCBs, limit stats, and the other :nono:. Doesn't self-destruct every 7 years. Makes no claims on ROI efficiency savings of 10% that any loon and a crayon can see look laughable. ie 'tis nearer a tank, than a boiler.
Reckon it'll probably still outlast any of the things put in today, but it will eventually shed its mortal coil. I need to be prepared.

So, going down memory lane before we all got castrated, with the dual caveat of GasSafe and efficiency requirements removed, even Corgi come to that, if you had you time again, and being a gas engineer, what would you hang on you elderly mother's wall to be sure, if you're not about, she doesn't unload her pension on a Pimlico Plumber's van outside her door.

I mean, my mother has an Ideal RS460 (about 1984 vintage), and it just keeps going, on and on. You can get the PCBs for it for £30 etc. It's an ideal solution. SWIDT.

Probably not close to 75% efficient and no GasSafe man could install and sign it off today.

But that Ideal RS460 aside, what other boilers, with parts available now, were in this league. How far would you have to look back? i want one. I'm aware the HE will be tired, but used will be fine.

You see, I'm a hydraulics bloke, I work with petrochemicals at daft pressures, and still our 300Bar Natural Gas compressors and burn-offs have less :nono: in them than my mate's new Potterton, er 'thing'.

'orrible it is.

So, and I am aware of the implications, what's the Massey Ferguson of the boiler world?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hello and welcome

May I ask what is your question you would like to ask us all

As the above seems like a little rant on evolution and progress

 

[unguided1]

Drain it an weld the bugger up if it has sentimental value!

 

[joni os]

Totally agree with the sentiments of OP. If efficiency was rated on whole life cost to consumer, inclusive of replacement and labour, many 1980s boilers would come top of the table. Add to that our," energy efficient," pumps and people are being forced to spend £ pounds to save pence. If carbon footprint was reduced it might be justified, but this is questionable given the additional transport, materials and manufacture process.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Drain it an weld the bigger up if it has sentimental value!

Somebody has a wit. In short what is the 'Brick' boiler made in the last 25 years that when you see it on a wall, you say "Ah, I can fix that, piece of :nono:" I can get the bits anywhere, etc etc.

The rock, the Mini, the Morris Minor. the VW Beetle and Hoover Junior/Senior of the boiler world?

I've got an old 90s Volvo. Good for half a million, but I want the boiler, that sort of thing?

 

[Masood]

Hello and welcome

May I ask what is your question you would like to ask us all

As the above seems like a little rant on evolution and progress

I think the gist of it is,

"I'm an engineer, therefore I don't need to follow the rules, what second-hand non-condensing boiler can I pick up off eBay and chuck in? By the way, I'm an engineer, you know. Did I mention that? I work on completely unrelated stuff but it sounds impressive so I'm much better than you lot so I'll ignore any advice I don't like the sound of. Because I'm an engineer, you see... Did I mention that? I'me seventy-four, you know... Jumpers for goalposts, 1966... Gawd bless her majesty...."

 

[GasAt300Bar]

"I'm an engineer, therefore I don't need to follow the rules, what second-hand non-condensing boiler can I pick up off eBay and chuck in? By the way, I'm an engineer, you know. Did I mention that? I work on completely unrelated stuff but it sounds impressive so I'm much better than you lot so I'll ignore any advice I don't like the sound of. Because I'm an engineer, you see... Did I mention that? I'me seventy-four, you know... Jumpers for goalposts, 1966... Gawd bless her majesty...."

Don't forget my love for old phone boxes, but yeah, spot on

But i'm not better than you. This is your territory. So I listen. Why, I'm here and all that.

 

[Masood]

In short what is the 'Brick' boiler made in the last 25 years that when you see it on a wall, you say "Ah, I can fix that, piece of p*ss" I can get the bits anywhere, etc etc.

The rock, the Mini, the Morris Minor. the VW Beetle and Hoover Junior/Senior of the boiler world?

I've got an old 90s Volvo. Good for half a million, but I want the boiler, that sort of thing?

Vaillant Turbomax. Naff all to go wrong apart from a diaphragm every few years. Loads of space to work in without shredding your hands. Parts easily available. Shame you're not allowed to fit them any more though, unless you get special dispensation...

 

[Ray Stafford]

Aye, it was great back in the day.

One slight downside was that we killed dozens of people every year with Carbon Monoxide poisoning chucked out by those good old floor standing, CF monsters.

Even as recently as 1995/6, 32 people died of CO poisoning from Mains gas appliances, and that was not untypical. In 12/13, the most recent year for which I can find data, that figure was 3 deaths. The prior year, 11/12, it was no deaths at all.

Apart from all the corpses though, it was a great time. But the music was better in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Masood]

But i'm not better than you. This is your territory. So I listen. Why, I'm here and all that.

Mainly tongue-in-cheek buddy. I'm sure my mechanic says the same about me when I mention that I always service and repair motorbikes....

 

[quality]

I replaced one of the early alpha ocean boilers last week it had done 21 years with a few replacement parts along the way. the nail in the coffin was the price of a new gas valve which had failed

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Apart from all the corpses though, it was a great time. But the music was better in the 70s and 80s.

a Vaillant Turbomax is the one for me. Sold

 

[Rickster123]

So F*^k me, a Vaillant Turbomax is the one for me. Sold

Watch the language. Even hidden swearing isn't tolerated here.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Understood. No swearing.
Seems even keeping the CF in the garage, well vented as it is at present might be less than wise.

 

[unguided1]

I may have a wit but for a change I was being serious. I have a customer who has got me to weld up his old oil boiler twice in the last six years!
I keep telling him that it won't last but I think he takes it as a personal challenge to extend its life! I could understand if the bloke was skint, but I know he isn't.
So my answer stands. If it has sentimental value, weld the bugger up!

Somebody has a wit. In short what is the 'Brick' boiler made in the last 25 years that when you see it on a wall, you say "Ah, I can fix that, piece of p*ss" I can get the bits anywhere, etc etc.

The rock, the Mini, the Morris Minor. the VW Beetle and Hoover Junior/Senior of the boiler world?

I've got an old 90s Volvo. Good for half a million, but I want the boiler, that sort of thing?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Put it in a glass case on show in your garage when you eventually retire your pride and joy

 

[Masood]

a Vaillant Turbomax is the one for me. Sold

Seriously though, you can't legally fit one these days. It's non-condensing so you'd need special dispensation from Building Control, normally only given for listed buildings or where there is absolutely no way of getting the condensate away.

Plus, even if you can buy a working one you'll have no history. No reputable GSR would fit it. If he/she did fit it, they couldn't register it.

If you want basically bulletproof, buy an Intergas. Just 4 moving pasrt, heat exchanger like a brick, massive internal waterways, super-efficient, and not as expensive as most..

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Mainly tongue-in-cheek buddy. I'm sure my mechanic says the same about me when I mention that I always service and repair motorbikes....

We had a plumber working on his car in our yard last year. Put PTFE on everything that moved

Welding this thing does not appeal. In the finish, Stupid.

So really, I have to bite the bullet, knowing it'll be off my wall again in seven years.

I want an Intergas I assume pay a bit more. Thank you.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Baxi Duotec comes close as being easy to fix ,one of the easiest to work on

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Inter gas, Baxi Duotec et al appear to be combination boilers, I've a power shower via Megaflow, and I've plenty of room for my tank. I'll do some more digging. Thanks chaps

 

[Phil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4tD2Hbg_A


Welcome gasAt300bar, I cant help reading your posts to the voice of Harry Enfield Yorkshireman.

 

[Masood]

Inter gas, Baxi Duotec et al appear to be combination boilers, I've a power shower via Megaflow, and I've plenty of room for my tank. I'll do some more digging. Thanks chaps

Can't comment on the Duotec as I don't know them but Intergas is also available as a system boiler, heat-only, any configuration you might need.

The cleverest bit is, you can pipe up the combi to run as a system boiler, no problem, manufacturer approves. Another hot water source available if you decide you need it in future. It can run on a sealed system or open-vented. Very, very flexible in its application.

 

[Dotty]

Understood. No swearing.
Seems even keeping the CF in the garage, well vented as it is at present might be less than wise.

Glad you understand the swearing rule now, I've just edited two of your posts.

We don't allow swearing, disguised or otherwise, on open forum. At all.

Normally results in the offender being sent off for an early bath.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Can't comment on the Duotec as I don't know them but Intergas is also available as a system boiler, heat-only, any configuration you might need.

The cleverest bit is, you can pipe up the combi to run as a system boiler, no problem, manufacturer approves. Another hot water source available if you decide you need it in future. It can run on a sealed system or open-vented. Very, very flexible in its application.

So I think I have this right, an Inter gas combi gets plumbed as any heat-only / or system, my Megaflow / bath runs via my tank, but if I like, I can run the odd sink of water in my kitchen or the dishwasher/washer straight off the combi, even if what is in my tank is still cold water?

Thinking about this as I type, I see how this would be, I think? But HW off the combi is at one pressure, off the tank at another, so i assume I'd have to keep the two HW feeds apart. No biggy, I think they are pretty much run that way now.

Have I got this right?

Harry Enfield Yorkshireman signing off.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Put it in a glass case on show in your garage when you eventually retire your pride and joy

You're taking the... I'm sensitive ya knows. I can tell.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

System equivalent of the Duotec Megaflo System

 

[Masood]

So I think I have this right, an Inter gas combi gets plumbed as any heat-only / or system, my Megaflow / bath runs via my tank, but if I like, I can run the odd sink of water in my kitchen or the dishwasher/washer straight off the combi, even if what is in my tank is still cold water?

Thinking about this as I type, I see how this would be, I think? But HW off the combi is at one pressure, off the tank at another, so i assume I'd have to keep the two HW feeds apart. No biggy, I think they are pretty much run that way now.

Have I got this right?

Harry Enfield Yorkshireman signing off.

Yep, that's correct..

 

[joni os]

Inter gas, Baxi Duotec et al appear to be combination boilers, I've a power shower via Megaflow, and I've plenty of room for my tank. I'll do some more digging. Thanks chaps

Viessmann regular boiler worth consideration. Open vent or sealed will both work with your Megaflow. Care needed on open vent to initially clear air from Hex but otherwise sound . Modulates well and has pump over-run option. What ever new boiler you install, thorough cleaning of existing system essential. I would flush, chemically clean for two weeks and flush again as a minimum.
Equating figures for CO deaths to floor standing boilers is misleading as it ignores the radiant heat gas fires with back boilers, common at the time, installed in original fire place. Cold air supply to these, cutting across room from outside wall, caused discomfort and vents were frequently blocked.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Another vote for Viessmann

 

[Stanios]

Oh yes the two things in life I have unwittingly missed out on as a youngster, It is always a rare and special treat for me to behold the majesty of a floor standing box only a trained eye of a seasoned hardened veteran, a real man, can appreciate the intricacies and finer details of.

Compared to what I've been training on these are mysterious beasts to me, a bit like cosmos, unfathomable for my tiny brain - after all as a young person my brain is not nearly developed. Gawking at the big grey pipe sticking out of the top that rumours say causes death, the reset button that has seen more fingering than the entire xhamster catalogue, this boiler ofcourse needs its very own room as well - nothing is worthy or compact enough to share space with it.

The rush is too much for me, I recall the legend of the real men, that long ago in another era real men roamed the land and worked the boiler. I let out a sigh, the final pushfit connection on my fresh combi has been pushed in its noon and I am eager to go finish my lego spaceship at home and have some warm milk.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Oh yes the two things in life I have unwittingly missed out on as a youngster, It is always a rare and special treat for me to behold the majesty of a floor standing box only a trained eye of a seasoned hardened veteran, a real man, can appreciate the intricacies and finer details of.

Compared to what I've been training on these are mysterious beasts to me, a bit like cosmos, unfathomable for my tiny brain - after all as a young person my brain is not nearly developed. Gawking at the big grey pipe sticking out of the top that rumours say causes death, the reset button that has seen more fingering than the entire xhamster catalogue, this boiler ofcourse needs its very own room as well - nothing is worthy or compact enough to share space with it.

The rush is too much for me, I recall the legend of the real men, that long ago in another era real men roamed the land and worked the boiler. I let out a sigh, the final pushfit connection on my fresh combi has been pushed in its noon and I am eager to go finish my lego spaceship at home and have some warm milk.

Yeh, way better back then, lest we forget the joy of the twin-tub, the Austin Metro, and a Ford Cortina you could never start.

Equating figures for CO deaths to floor standing boilers is misleading as it ignores the radiant heat gas fires with back boilers, common at the time, installed in original fire place. Cold air supply to these, cutting across room from outside wall, caused discomfort and vents were frequently blocked.

My monster is in the garage, so to a degree, it can do what it likes with noxious emissions, vented well enough for a garage anyways - there can't be too many deaths form those sited as mine is, but it has to go. This subject clearly requires more thought than I had it down for. Flushing is going to be a pain, not something I can short change on, I had grasped that new units are fussy about the crud, one of the reasons along with short life expectancy that I'd origianlly thought of older stuff.

Thank you gents.

 

[joni os]

Not just fussy about crud, but totally allergic to it. Even worth total removal of rads whilst drained down and individually flushed, invert tap with rubber hammer etc. Not something done commercially but when you're doing it for yourself do it right and do it once.
Cars of the 70s were ready for scrapping after 10 years and 100K on the clock was an achievement. Now they have almost doubled in engine life, miles/gal and durability. Hopefully, we won't need the Japs to teach us how to build boilers.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

My main objection to all this is how efficiency gets measured. As written previously in this thread, as a measure of whole life cost to the user, inclusive of replacement and labour, servicing and the plain fact that every man-jack of current boilers in ten years gets thrown for a similar set of reason to those I'm getting now.

Yet ' I'll be forced into it, becuase the Inter Gas / Baxi Megaflow Viessmann etc now in all earnest recommended as a good thing, will clear as day, obsolete. No parts see...

The fact that these things won't cope with the the vast amounts of crud I'm sure I've got in my system, worries me. - I've got 45 years worth remember.

Cars generally have got better, but it seems boilers have got much, much worse, and sadly I have to play along, whne my 45 year old monster is repairable, even today.

Rant over.

Like a turkey voting for Xmas, ready for the grim-reapers.. Messrs, Inter Gas / Baxi Megaflow Viessmannseems I have to get all my rads off and get the rubber mallet out. Hurmpf.

Question: With one of the minor players back in the day, I had a 10-12 year old boiler, rather than a 45 year old one, would it be a repair, or would I be throwing it?

 

[joni os]

Good news:-
1. Boilers have become more reliable over the last 15 years.
2. As you get older a lifetime gets shorter.

 

[Masood]

Yet ' I'll be forced into it, becuase the Inter Gas / Baxi Megaflow Viessmann etc now in all earnest recommended as a good thing, will clear as day, obsolete. No parts see...

Nonsense. It's still possible to buy parts for 25-year old boilers (and older), why would that change?

The fact that these things won't cope with the the vast amounts of crud I'm sure I've got in my system, worries me. - I've got 45 years worth remember.

Bang in a plate heat exchanger and voila, your new boiler is on a pristine system and the old one can be as filthy as you like.

Cars generally have got better, but it seems boilers have got much, much worse, and sadly I have to play along, whne my 45 year old monster is repairable, even today.

Again, nonsense. Boilers have become much, much more efficient, economical and sophisticated. Yes, compared to primitive technology there's more to go wrong, but if properly installed on a well-designed system and regularly maintained, there's no reason why they shouldn't last as long. And with the increasingly sophisticated control systems like weather compensation, opentherm and geofencing/smart controls, you can make a strong case for fuel saving almost if not completely offsetting the initial environmental impact of manufacture, shipping etc.

 

[newcastle phill]

Coal fired boiler - thats what we need. Were all the rage in the '30s. Never went wrong

 

[GasAt300Bar]

Coal fired boiler - thats what we need. Were all the rage in the '30s. Never went wrong

Yep solid as a rock, mine didn't! Can i digress?
Actually in my last house, no mains gas see, I had a 50Kw solid fuel Dowling Sumo and a LPG Potterton running into a Dunsley Neutraliser. 4 pumps, 4 Normally open valves, three pipe stats. Had to nigh on fit the thing myself in the finish, simply because all the plumbers I could find keen to fit such a thing were Northerners- I'm down south.
Every southern plumber where I was would look at it like I was off my head to even consider coal. As for a Dunsley Neutraliser... what????!

Went thru' a good half dozen. None knew what i was talking about.

Bloke from Leeds came down, and didn't bat an eye lid. Once the northern guy had done the donkey work, had southerners finish off. When you've got no gas, and LPG being what it is, solid fuel, via a Dunsley Neutraliser, then anyway, was the best solution.

I had to fight convention, and was so glad I did. ie a victim of plumbers wanting to install what they knew rather than listen to an unconventional solution to an unconventioanal house (listed) No
silly ROI of 4-10years eitehr, mine paid in 18 months - 2 years. LPG bill had been mahoosive. So pricey compared to coal at the time.

So if 12-15 year boilers are all fixable?
I'm wonderin' why there's all the carping about boilers being obsolete. My brother had to be rid of his Saunier Duval for this reason.
I've been looking, seems heat-exchangers can be swapped, which is good, and i take the point, once done it's fair and good, a new boiler.

It seems the stereotype of modern boilers might not be altogether deserved..

"Heating Engineers"
It's jsut that nigh on half a dozen er "Heating Engineers" would have been very happy to steer me wrong, simply because that was what they knew, and was in their self-interest to have me run with. I still reckon (in my part of Bucks anyway), I knwo more about triple souce dual, fuel and triple fuel solid fuel mix systems than all the local plumbers put togeher, simply because they don't fit it down here. Or didn't then. And didn't have need to learn. "Heating Engineers" Northern plumbers, on the other hand...

So sorry.

Perhaps modern boilers aren't liek modern light bulbs afterall, 3 x price, less light, or horrible light, and 3 x shorter life. (Despite all claims to contrary)

 

[joni os]

As you know what you want. Rather than waste the time of those who offer tested solutions free of charge. Just circulate a Bill of Quantities, drawings and specification so no ones time is wasted.

 

[GasAt300Bar]

As you know what you want. Rather than waste the time of those who offer tested solutions free of charge. Just circulate a Bill of Quantities, drawings and specification so no ones time is wasted.

No you have me wrong, in that solid fuel case, it was a Scotsman that put me onto the 'tested-solution' as he was doing it, and free of charge. Frankly I wanted him to do the job.
Because all his experience was in Dumfires and Galaway he wasn't used to gas on tap, but did know of the issues with large houses miles from mains supplies, unlike my local plumbers. All his work was liek that, hence, he knew exactly how to deal with it.

That was an exception, in this case, I will have to listen to you all. No real options.

 

[newcastle phill]

Scotsmen are great with solid fuel...
Lots of experience as many north of the border still lives in caves..

 

[Dotty]

The op has left the building for using offensive words in his last post