HW only works when CH is on, and other problems

[nervous123]

We had a new CH system recently installed, by contractor, as part of general refurb. The Vaillant EcoTec 630 boiler was installed by a Gas Safe engineer (altho Tempest unvented cylinder was not) and the electrics were wired by a NICEIC electrician. Certs recd for both.

Ever since we moved in, we noticed that (a) HW only works when both HW and CH buttons on the Honeywell St9400c programmer are on; and (b) CH works only when HW button is on (HW button alone does nothing).

I've had another electrician come and check the wiring and he said it all seems fine so he reckons it's a plumbing issue.

Checked up in the loft and there are 2 valves (both in 'auto' position) - is that S plan? I've had my wife turn on the various buttons downstairs and as far as I can see there was no movement in either of the valves. (Pics attached - original electrician said the lower one marked 'A' is heating, the upper one 'B' is hot water')

Any explanation/advice gratefully appreciated.

NB. Comments on general quality of installation also welcome. Also, a mate told me cylinder has to be positioned over a load-bearing wall - is he right, and how much of a problem is it if that's not the case? I believe mine isn't.

 

[oldplumber]

nice pickup shorti on the mains fed and multi valve, now u mention it that setup is looking positively interesting and needs inspecting closeup by a qualified installer asap, my natural desire to be fair to custard and installer is probably wrong on his occassion and someone needs taking in hand and slapped shortly thereafter. Use an approved contractor for an inspection and call in trading standards at thesame time so they can track down the installer, ring the localcouncil for advice here, then when all has been put right thebuildings control will be happy and a good installer will be able to self certify his work and have a buildings control ticket issued to the customer

 

[Gray0689]

That instalation is a total balls he has 2 mot valves on same line that's why you have to have heating on as it has to open heating valve to get to hot water valve
As stated cold feed is totally wrong prv is piped wrong pipes should be lagged 1m from cylinder but as in a roof space should all be lagged with 22mm by 19mm armaflex or same propertys
Not a shut of valve in sight
(you better hope it does not freeze)
Your discharge pipework I'd like to see where it comes out of house?
I would be thinking it's wrong size? Sorry but you got ripped off big time
And as stated I'd be looking to see if your joists are up to taking that kind of weight
Unfortanatly to get an unvented ticket a trained monkey can do this in a day it's simple
And ciph means nothing any plumber Can join this organisation
As you got your boiler instaled by a gsr installer if there a problem there you got some come back if problem

But I'd get that cylinder looked at it's probably not unsafe but there is a lot of problems needs sorted to make sure there nothing we all missed from limited pictures

Best if luck hope you get it sorted

 

[nervous123]

Unfortanatly to get an unvented ticket a trained monkey can do this in a day it's simple
And ciph means nothing any plumber Can join this organisation

But I'd get that cylinder looked at

Best if luck hope you get it sorted

Thanks for the review of problems - much appreciated.

If, according to you, the unvented ticket and CIPH are not that meaningful, who should I go to for an opinion?

 

[Gray0689]

Thanks for the review of problems - much appreciated.

If, according to you, the unvented ticket and CIPH are not that meaningful, who should I go to for an opinion?

Unvented qualification is mandatory to work on these cylinders just easy to get
Ask on here if anyone near you to have a look at this cylinder there is a lot of good experienced plumbers on this site if no one in your area maybe someone can point you in right direction
Hope you get it sorted mate

 

[nervous123]

Ask on here if anyone near you to have a look at this cylinder there is a lot of good experienced plumbers on this site if no one in your area maybe someone can point you in right direction
Hope you get it sorted mate

With that in mind... can anyone recommend a good reliable fellow near NW London? Thanks...

 

[Kimou]

Incredible. I'd get some support under that ply, sharpish. If that base collapses; you could be in big trouble. 1 litre= 1 kilo, so if you got a 200L vessel, well, do the maths. It doesn't look like it fits on both the 4"x2" batons.

It wasn't Wagbo who installed it...was it?

 

[washer]

Unusual to support the expansion vessel with copper pipe.

 

[shorticus]

Just had a closer look at your pics, it would appear that there is a pipe teeing in-between the two motorised valves, assuming this is the flow then I would suggest that the circulation issue maybe an electrical/controls one. Other than the integral IV in the multifunction valve I’m not sure there’s a need for extra isolation valves. As far as the weight is concerned as this is a plumbing forum I doubt anyone here (and I might be wrong!) has a grasp of Young’s Modulus nor be capable of calculating bending moments from photographs, I would seek the advice of a Structural Engineer...something your contractor should have done.
G3 is easy but then again so is plumbing; it never ceases to amaze me how wrong some people get it, perhaps that’s why there is a slow but steady advance for better regulation.
CIPHE is not perfect but in the absence of compulsory licensing it at least can demonstrate an individual’s good intent on raising standards in our craft and developing their own continued education. There's no-one that has all the answers. As I previously said, look for CIPHE registration ‘in conjunction’ with the correct qualifications and Gas Safe registration, if you can find someone with CORGI plumbing as well then I’m sure you’ll not go too far wrong.
Best of British, be sure to let us know how it pans out.

 

[Avatar]

Its so bad I would think about taking the guy to court for the lot:

As a customer legally you have to get a job of REASONABLE quailty for a REASONABLE price - niether of which seem in evidence!

10k its cost, find out how much I would cost to make safe and rectify, then get a court judgement against the guy for that amount.

It sounds hardcore, but you have been royally stiffed - I would be charging you about 4-5k all in to do that job properly!

Good luck!

 

[gasmarc]

we all make mistakes sometimes and i think you just need to resign yourself to the fact that its going to cost you another grand max to sort out

 

[oilman]

I agree with lots of the points already mentioned , the expansion vessel should not be mounted with the air valve at the top
THE LINK FROM INLET TO BALANCED OUTPUT AT BASE OF PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE BYPASSES THE FUNCTION OF THE VALVE very dangerous. If you are lucky your mains pressure may be below 3 bar.
An unvented cylinder is controlled by law and must be notified by a qualified installer or inspected by Building Control if installed by anyone else.
The safety discharge pipe must be of material that can stand boiling water and of a size related to the length of it's path. Mostly this would be copper or steel pipework definitely not plastic water connectors.

 

[washer]

What I dont get, is why would you even consider putting that link in on the pressure reducing valve, and even more worrying how many more installations have got it.

 

[nervous123]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful comments and sympathy. In a way, I guess it's actually 'lucky' that i had the problem with the CH and HW controls, as it seems to have highlighted far more fundamental issues...

The reason I didn't shop around for more prices is that I got 3 quotes for all the renovations (also incl electrics, removing chimneys etc) from 3 separate contractors. This guy was (at least initially) the cheapest so I took him. He must have been either lying, or deflated the other prices to compensate.

One of my biggest gripes about the whole business is that I specially took a contractor rather than get the individual workers (electrician, plumber etc) despite the inevitable markup, to save me the hassle (I work 9-5.30) - and all I've got is grief and hassle. Ironic isn't it.

Anyway, hopefully (depending on his workload) I've got someone coming in this week to inspect. He's IPHE registered - will see what he says.

PS> At first I was inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, however I'm now veering more and more to suing the contractor, especially as everyone says 10k is too much even for a properly done job.

 

[gasmarc]

yes I would do it if he is still in business , hopefully any structural work has been passed, good luck

 

[SafeGasInstall]

pls keep us update .

good luck !

 

[oilman]

I guess the installer saw the input to the pressure reducing valve and then the balanced cold for showers etc and thought "that's the same thing" and connected the ports Thereby proving he is neither competent nor qualified

 

[Avatar]

One of my biggest gripes about the whole business is that I specially took a contractor rather than get the individual workers (electrician, plumber etc) despite the inevitable markup, to save me the hassle (I work 9-5.30) - and all I've got is grief and hassle. Ironic isn't it.

I am always preaching to customers to do this - if you get a builder in as a main contractor he will just bring in the other trades anyway, and charge 50% extra ontop of their labour fees, or even worse do the plumbing, electrical or gas work himself, without the proper qualifications!

Man, a lot of my work (50%) is putting right work that builders have done - it is absolutely shocking!


As to the legal route - I am soory but if you pay 10 grand for a car, and it doesn't drive and has loads of faults you take it back for a refund!

People dont think that they are in their rights to sue a builder, but they are. You can even get baliffs up at em, when the judgement has been passed!

 

[shorticus]

PS> At first I was inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, however I'm now veering more and more to suing the contractor, especially as everyone says 10k is too much even for a properly done job.

Personaly speaking if someone owes me money I'll not let them of the hook, however I'd advise getting some legal advice. I'm not sure whether you have to give your contractor the opportunity to put things right even though there's clear demonstration of incompetance. Perhaps a quick phone call to trading standards or citizens advice might be prudent

 

[Avatar]

if i remember rightly you have to write a 'without predudice' letter giving them 14 days at least to rembuse you, or in this case put the work right . . .

Legal adivce would be recommended, as you cannot use the small claims court for 10k!

Good luck.

 

[gasmarc]

avatar is correct ,you can get this clown to pay to rectify all this bad work but that is only if he has money,

 

[franz]

I still find it hard to believe that these people can still trade.If A CAR mechanic did faulty work on my brakes and killed someone would he not go to prison or the like?
They should be named and shamed.
Also, is there no legal way to stop them trading.

 

[nervous123]

if i remember rightly you have to write a 'without predudice' letter giving them 14 days at least to rembuse you, or in this case put the work right . . .

Legal adivce would be recommended, as you cannot use the small claims court for 10k!

Good luck.

5 weeks ago, I emailed him all o/s points with a deadline of over a month. [This is not the only thing he's messed up. Apart from various 'minor' snags, he's messed up my brand new extension roof. That'll set me back about £3-4k to remedy - my retention is approx £4-5k - as he has not given me a figure I have had to calculate it myself.] I even offered a part-payment of £500 to take care of some of the points and the balance on completion of all. As expected, he never turned up (add to add insult to injury, he demanded more than £500 to finish the first points, as if he's in a position to negotiate.)

At the time, although I referred to the problem of the HW and CH controls, I didn't yet know I (may have) had a problem with the cylinder installation, so that wasn't included in my email. So according to you, I would have to write another letter. However, the last thing I want is him coming back to 'rectify' the job. I have no faith (and every suspicion) in his work/workers! What I do want, is that he reimburse me - either (a) the cost of remedial work, or (b) he reimburses part of the £10k originally charged.

I'd love to bring in LABC to have a look ... and get him in trouble ...

 

[PlumbBobBob]

do it then. see if he turns up to answer the problems with them there and see him squirm and try to get out of it and blame everyone else but himself!

 

[nervous123]

do it then. see if he turns up to answer the problems with them there and see him squirm and try to get out of it and blame everyone else but himself!

Is there any chance it would be me who would get into any trouble with LABC?

(Think I'll wait anyway til the GS-reg fellows have checked it out this week)

 

[Avatar]

You can call in trading standards as well, but seriously - get in an couple of experts in unvented water systems, and boilers and get them to assess the work done, and give figures for the remedial work.

Tell them if they give a free quote, that you will use them for the corrective work when it is done - for Gods sake ask for some referances please!

All this will be ammo for you when you come to deal with this legally - by the way is this guy a builder, or does he do the work himself?

I didn't hear you say east european did I? (If I did, shame on you!)

 

[nervous123]

Okay---seems the end may be in sight. I've finally had 3 fellows with the Unvented ticket come and have a look. They all said it's about a day's work.... basically

• replace discharge with copper pipe running downhill. Currently plastic pipe merely terminates under eaves so will need to be run down to ground level outside
• repair CH / HW issue - either a wiring problem or may need to be replumbed, depending on where flow is coming from
• can't do anything with non-existent balanced cold

First one works for a local reputable contractor. Contractor wants £800. (My bad luck - had contractor round anyway, mentioned my cylinder to him, then independently found engineer on GS website who said he can't come himself as he's already seen me by his contractor's request.)

• They will not take responsibility for any part of installation they don't touch.
• His worker did not check to see where plastic discharge pipe terminates, so I'm not sure if he is even aware there is external work too.

Second (independent) says he is 'dear' (and I could get for around £300 from someone else) but he works with a 2nd pair of hands (plumber), and wants £575.

• For this price he will also commission the boiler (as he doubts they've done the checks) and he will sign both the Vaillant boiler commission list (back age of manual - left empty?!) and the Benchmark cylinder booklet.
• He assured me he will prepare the cylinder to a level complying with Building Regs.
• He remarked that gas pipe under boiler had not been sleeved but did not say he would do any work on it.

Third (independent) is going home to think about it but reckons about £300.

• Unlike second guy, he said he simply cannot sign off cylinder Benchmark booklet as complying with B'Regs, because pipes are not lagged or clipped. (doesnt want to do lagging for me as it's timeconsuming work that i could do myself). Other than that he can get it to a safe and functioning level but would not want to put his name to it.
• He will also move expansion vessel to a nearby vertical joist.
• He is happy to fill in the Vaillant boiler commission list, as we have recd Gas Safe certificate so seems installer merely forgot to fill it in.
• He did add that gas pipe below boiler not being sleeved is very naughty (if GS found out they would be v angry) and that he would do that too (drill new hole from outside and sleeve it).

I see it as a toss up between the latter two - but maybe someone here could advise which of them sounds a more realistic price. i.e. is £300 suspiciously low...?

Also, if second fellow is prepared to sign cylinder Benchmark booklet - (a) is that suspicious seeing as third guy isn't; (b) conversely, is that a good reason to go for him, as that way i will have the cylinder signed off and notified.