Help my family get warm please. cold water feed issue?

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Discuss Help my family get warm please. cold water feed issue? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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Andybrad

Ok a long story here. Ill split it up into a bit of background and where were at now.


/Background/

We moved into a new house in February last year. A detached house a bit bigger than our old 1 bed terraced. It was cold. The heating was on about 4:30pm and things wouldn’t start to get remotely warm till about 9pm. So the rad in the front room (furthest away from the boiler and where we are sitting) only got hot at the top. I took this to be possibly a blocked rad. Took it off and flushed it through with a hose in the garden. Got some black crud out of it and back on. Still the same. I then gave up and asked a heating “engineer” to pop round. He diagnosed the problem as a sticky trv valve. Drained the system and fitted a new one (plus a few more downstairs) the water while draining down the system didn’t look too black or anything so I thought nothing else of it. The engineer said the system was air locked. He diagnosed the problem as a loop above the diverting valve as shown here. So this time I asked him to fit a vent so we could bleed it and refill.

Heres a pic of the loop
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/...6101692336468939074&oid=108267992033991783465.


Ok so this was done and we start filling up the system again after the TRVs are installed. Can we refill it? Can we buggery. After half an hour of faffing it was decided to “back fill” using a hosepipe to one of the radiator take offs. Another half hour + later we had all the rads with some water (but not full) in them but it took another hour for the boiler to fire and warm the rads though. Like there was a massive air lock in the boiler and it was tripping out.

Once it got going we had a warm radiator in the front room about 2 hours after the boiler kicked in. this is the best its been. However the engineer is suggesting we now try a new pump to see if we can improve things.



After he had gone (the following week)I replaced the old pump with a variable speed wiko one. A slight improvement. However I couldn’t refill again. I ended up using an old fire extinguisher to force water down the cwf to the system. This worked and the system then filled.


/Background/



So its summer now and weve just had our first child. (a few weeks old) I need to get this sorted asap before the bad weather kicks in. (I don’t think a baby is going to like a 4 degC warm house!)
So the central heating is off at the moment. Ive got a weekend off baby duty to get this sorted so I need to hit it in one go. Im going to replace a couple of the woefully undersized rads (current output 1500 but required 4000btu) to try and improve matters. But the issue remains that were getting cold.
Nowthen another side to this is when the system goes onto heat the hot water we get massive “surges” of air it seems like. Im wondering if the vent to the hot water side (I can not see any vent on the rad side) is getting air pulled down it due to a blocked cold feed? As can be seen in this photo.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1082...6101692358935444402&oid=108267992033991783465


the cold feed comes from the loft and drops through the floor shown here
https://plus.google.com/photos/1082...6101913819630823602&oid=108267992033991783465


and feeds in under this pipe im pointing to.
https://plus.google.com/photos/1082...6101913822469059282&oid=108267992033991783465
at this point its slightly magnetic as well. This makes me think its partially blocked.


which then comes into this pipe back to the boiler
https://plus.google.com/photos/1082...6101913819831352578&oid=108267992033991783465


would there be any issue in cutting this out and capping it off then teeing into the last pipe shown from a vertical tee? Why does it turn under its self ?

ive asked the “engineer” to call out again and he doesn’t want to. And he admitted he doesn’t really know whats wrong.


Lastly any idea what this valve is for? Im guessing its for filling?

https://plus.google.com/photos/1082...6101913821000899714&oid=108267992033991783465


Anyways please help guys, I need to keep my family warm.





The full album can be seen here
https://plus.google.com/photos/108267992033991783465/albums/6101913436219624961

Many thanks

Andy
 
if you dont mind me asking how much you looking to spend as there are a few options?????

and the sliver valve your pointing at is a bypass (say when the 3 port valve shuts and the pump is still running the water doesnt have any where to go, and the bypass if open lets the pump push the warm water around the system when the 3 port closes)
 
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Andybrad said:
couple hundred quid tops?

what do you suggest are the options
Click to expand...

sorry to say i dont think you will my options are below

all options power flush the system/ put some cleaner in the f and e tank and run for a week

option one re pipe and f and r to the cylinder and heating getting rid of that loop as thats causing your issues (gravity cold water doesn't normally like going up hill much)

option two if mains pressure is ok and boiler is compatible switch/convert to an unvented system

but tbh i would post in the section [DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL] as someone might be local to you

aslo can you take a pic of your f and e tank plz?
 
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I ran x800 in the system for a month before flushing it out.

I could like to replace the cold feed but I don't want to run it full length to the loft (hence my question about chopping the effected loop out?) as its all plastered in and goes through the bathroom as well.
 
if there is a bypass valve on a threeway then it wrong three way valves are never closed the only silver valve i can see in the pictures is a balofix on a draw off from the cylinder vent
what i cant see is where the pipe work goes after the threeway and into the primary theres a tee going upwards??? also no throttle valve visible on the primary return means cylinder will be running full bore
 
just had another look and realised cold feed and vent are completely in the wrong place i suspect it was originally a gravity cylinder there and its been badly converted to fully pumped is the pipe going upwards of the primary the open vent?
 
stevetheplumber said:
just had another look and realised cold feed and vent are completely in the wrong place i suspect it was originally a gravity cylinder there and its been badly converted to fully pumped is the pipe going upwards of the primary the open vent?
Click to expand...

or diy as my first thought
 
Also do you think its a sensible option (as I do) to cut out and refit that bend in the bottom of the cold water feed?
 
Andybrad said:
Also do you think its a sensible option (as I do) to cut out and refit that bend in the bottom of the cold water feed?
Click to expand...

if i was you i would post in the section i have linked
 
easiest way out will probably be to seal the system depending on which boiler you have. I doubt if a blocked cold feed is going to stop the system working if youve back fed it and its full of water
basically if you have no money theres not a lot anyone can do
 
The problem with a fault like this is there are a number of things wrong with the installation. Any decent plumber will initially advise to replumb it rather than trial and error at making quick changes. This isn't due to wanting to take more money from you, it's from experience that when you seen dodgy installations its always better to start over rather than just fix 'the worst part', test to see if it has improved it enough, then fix the next worst part, test....

I know you need to watch the pennies with the little one on the way and would rather fix it yourself but it really needs quite a few things looking at and thats only in the photos we can see.

Ball-o-fix valve shouts out DIY to me so i bet there are more issues elsewhere
 
Thanks for the honest response.

any rough guestimates on what it would cost for a refit?
 
Oh and by the way I would suggest im pretty competent at replacing pipework if required. Just would like to know the best method of going about it all :)
 
If it was me I would start with a full power flush,
As all though adding X800 and draining down will remover loose debris, only a power flush will move the stuff that's stuck solid, and if moneys tight i'd guess you'd be keeping the old rads to save on cost if you where to go with a full refit
 
In all honesty you'd be far better off getting 3 or 4 quotes from guys who can come and look at it. Pictures do tell us a lot but then you might have missed summat a decent plumber would pick up on.

When you've got your quotes come back and ask us then.
 
You may well be competent at connecting pipework but it is understanding where and why you connect that is the important bit.
Whoever put your system in could connect pipe but didn't have a clue about getting it to work properly.
I don't know why your previous heating engineer could not find more fault with the system than the loop over the 3 port, get a better engineer who knows what he is looking at and how to put it right. Take some of the advise given and seek a good independent heating / gas engineer who is gas safe registered ideally who comes recommended (by someone you know and whos opinion you trust) and who is considered reputable and be prepared to pay what a skilled knowledgeable and reputable trades person costs ( more than your budget in labour alone). If need be sell the mountain bike and anything else of value till you can afford to make your cold cave a home for your child.

However I know it may simply not be that easy to raise the money and go about the work the proper way, So if you intend to keep the system open vented this is the minimum I would change ( see attached pics).
pipe layout advised.jpgrepipe.jpg
 
As above photos, was going to suggest similar but solutions does it better.
 
think i know who plumbed that up...

lawrence lewellen bowen!!!


air lock, last one i did was 2 days work and changing pipiwork. pumps running dry and wont last either as no vert vent. £4-500?
could try vacume on tank feed while back filling or boil it!
 
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Got to say enjoyed reading this post to see just how much knowledge is here among the members .....regards Turnpin;)
 
I'd do similar but with a nice combined feed & vent, pls autos instead of manual vents ;)
 
gassafe said:
I'd do similar but with a nice combined feed & vent, pls autos instead of manual vents ;)
Click to expand...
Each to their own, cant stand auto vents. But a combined feed vent should work as long as it is piped right.
 
Does anyone think the brass valve in picture 9 is a non return valve left over from a gravity hw/pumped heating?
 
That's the first thing I would remove, if it is from the original system it could be full of crud, it looks like it has been removed and refitted recently with the Ptfe, so possibly even refitted the wrong direction, hence problem refilling, plunger could even be stuck restricting any flow through.
 
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stani said:
That's the first thing I would remove, if it is from the original system it could be full of crud, it looks like it has been removed and refitted recently with the Ptfe, so possibly even refitted the wrong direction, hence problem refilling, plunger could even be stuck restricting any flow through.
Click to expand...
The whole instalation doesnt even look a year old.
 
solutions said:
The whole instalation doesnt even look a year old.
Click to expand...

Come off it lol!! We must be looking at different pics or something, judging by that old school shower pump I'd say 10 years plus at least & that's being generous
 
The stuff around the 3 port looked pretty bright and shiny but maybe its just the camera flash. Shower valve is s handsome relic looks like you could play classic nintendo games on it.
 
Firstly many many thanks for the responses. I didn't get an email saying I had more replies so its taken a while to respond.

The brass thing doesn't have any internals. I took it off as I didn't really know what it was for (why would you have that?) and its just a tube with a bleed vent in it.

I agree, if I could get someone in I would. Weve had 2 guys round since we moved in and neither wants to touch it, the last one telling me so as he said there was a lot of potential for it to make no difference and costa lot and hence make me an unhappy customer. I appreciated his honesty. The first guy (recommended, whole family uses him etc etc) I lost confidence in.

I think just relocating the fed and vent will solve most of the problems so ill look into that first as the cwf if defianteley blocked / restricted as it comes into the boiler return. Thank you for the suggestions.

two questions I have are why put the "u" in the feed pipe? and why do they have to be so close together?i imagine its to aid filling of the loop with reduced potential for airlocks? or is it to keep the pressure similar between the two points?

Again many thanks for the help. :)
 
Oh and is there any reason why it is preferable to have the feed and vent on the outlet of the boiler as opposed to the inlet?
 
Andybrad said:
two questions I have are why put the "u" in the feed pipe? and why do they have to be so close together?i imagine its to aid filling of the loop with reduced potential for airlocks? or is it to keep the pressure similar between the two points?

Again many thanks for the help. :)
Click to expand...

The u is to insure water is drawn in from that pipe rather than having air travel up it.
The distance is to insure constant positive pump pressure around the circuit. The only neutral or negative zone will be the max 150mm section. As the pump pushes water through the boiler and back to the vent any air there will rise up out of the vent. The pump wont pull air because it is easier for it to draw water from the feed which is between the vent and the pump. The pump then pushes water around the whole circuit (through the 3 port to hot water coil or to rads or both). The only point on the circuit that the pump isnt pushing is the section between vent and feed.

On older open vent boilers it was common to add the feed to the boiler direct as this insured that the boiler was least likely to air lock. I suspect as has been suggested that your boiler and system is likely to have been a gravity based system at some point and has been badly converted to add the pump and 3 port.

On a gravity system one way valves are fitted to insure hot water rises in the direction around the circuit that is intended. The brass cylinder / valve referred to as possibly a one way valve is below the floor in one of your pics. I will try to find the pic you posted of it.
[DLMURL]https://plus.google.com/app/basic/photos/108267992033991783465/album/6101913436219624961/6101913719600700530?cbp=1f2cape2s0mlz&authkey&sview=20&cid=5&soc-app=115&soc-platform=1&spath=/app/basic/photos/108267992033991783465/album/6101913436219624961&sparm=cbp%3D1l88h28fv2tn1%26authkey%26sview%3D20%26cid%3D5%26soc-app%3D115%26soc-platform%3D1%26pgpnum%3D2%26spath%3D/app/basic/photos%26sparm%3Dcbp%253D1l88h28fv2tn1%2526authkey%2526sview%253D20%2526cid%253D5%2526soc-app%253D115%2526soc-platform%253D1%2526pv%253Dhi%2526pgpnum%253D1[/DLMURL]

Sealing the system and getting rid of the feed and vent tank is another effective way to go, but will have greater initial parts and materials costs and may have implications for any parts of your system that cant take the increased operating pressure of a sealed system ( 1.2/1.5 bar cold - 2.5 bar hot)

Correct the pipe layout as I illustrated and try running the system again.
When filling the system with the pipework altered if you are competant enough, wire the central heating pump to a plug and just run the pump with the boiler off untill all the radiatirs are bled and the air pips I illustrated have stopped letting out air. Then wire the original pump flex back to the pump and fire the system up with thd boiler.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Andybrad said:
Oh and is there any reason why it is preferable to have the feed and vent on the outlet of the boiler as opposed to the inlet?
Click to expand...
On a pumped system it is irrelevant. Its just about the location of the pump which for wiring convenience is normally with the cylinder 3 port etc and therefore on the boiler outlet.
The important part is that the order of the pipework is vent feed pump.
Other wise you get pumping over and other problems which is what you get when the system switches to hot water coil (pump pushes water up and over vent in to the f and e, and because you have a partialy blocked feed you have in effect pumped the water out of the system and left lots of air. I bet your tank overflows run too.
It would be useful for you to post some pictures of the loft cisterns so the vent height and position can be checked.
 
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oh I forgot, the tank doesn't overflow through the vent. (its about 0.5m+ above the fe tank) however you do get a slight suction though the vent which would be what you are describing.
 
I think you should stop playing plumber. We are professionals for a reason. I'm pretty good at a lot of things but if I want it done properly I'll call in a fellow pro. Whether it's a plasterer or a carpenter. An expert only has one area of expertise.
 
I 've seen poor soldering before but rarely with solder ring fittings, got to be DIY.

To the OP, I don't know many plumbers that wear a Rolex but I know what I'd do in your situation if funds were limited and I had a new baby and no heating. You've known about the issues for over a year and you've got a couple of months before the wife starts complaining as to why you still haven't sorted it yet.
 
gmartine said:
I 've seen poor soldering before but rarely with solder ring fittings, got to be DIY.

To the OP, I don't know many plumbers that wear a Rolex but I know what I'd do in your situation if funds were limited and I had a new baby and no heating. You've known about the issues for over a year and you've got a couple of months before the wife starts complaining as to why you still haven't sorted it yet.
Click to expand...

That looks like an Omega Speedmaster Professional. It could raise a grand. I have one too but would freeze my arse off rather than sell it! Don't know if my wife would agree with that though...
 
Stigster, I have Jaeger LC bought buy my wife so I certainly understand the attraction of such trinkets.

Thing is, a new born secretes sebum to stop you caving their little soft heads in when they're crying at night. I no longer have that protection so I'd expect to find my head caved in along with the watch if ever the house was cold with a new bairn.
 
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Hello guys, long time no speak.

Firstly thanks for all your help. I finally got around to replacing the cwf and it looked like this.
https://goo.gl/photos/LBwM9Fpb4yoSoVnw7

cleaned out the pipes etc and were good. Heating is fantastic in comparison and we can easily get it up to temp. Although replacing an old rad at the same time has made me realise just how poor the old rads are.

Its still making a racket when the hot water comes on. Sounds like its pulling air in but its fine with the heating. strange.

But anyway I can live with that for the time being and mommy and baby both say thanks for all your help.

Cheers

Andy
 
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