Gas Rating dfe with no data plate?

[village idiot]

They will ask you why you haven't got a copy

you can say that again. They give yu this vague look and think you must be daft. ''You are the Engineer, isn't it? What did you think you were coming here to do without the MI?''

As far as they are concerned, it is your responsibility to have the manual for their appliance.
Sounds strange, but that's how they see it. And I can see their point of view. I have had situations where an old boiler manual could not be located. I had to order one from manufacturer and got it within four days. At least, when I went round to service the boiler, I was in my element

 

[kirkgas]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

The reason you can't have a statement like this is because I can work on firegem visa fire and baxi 401 BBU as two good examples of appliances I know inside out, and have worked on and fitted many 100's of them, therefore I don't need the MI, but I do need MI for other appliances, THE STATEMENT IS ABOUT HAVING OR KNOWING THE RELEVANT INFO, YOU CANNOT GUESS OR SURMISE,

 

[village idiot]

The way the homeowner sees it: If you're Gas Safe (Engineer), then by right, you k ow all about Gas Appliances and have all the relevant information embedded into your brain. And to he honest, I can appreciate their point of view. If you take your car to a mechanic, you do not expect them to tell you your car will be left to one side till they can find the relevant instructions? You rely in the belief that they are knowledgable enough to use whatever means they have to diagnose and repair the car/van.
As the Engineer, it is my opinion that, you have the responsibility to have the relevant MI Manuals at your disposal.
I don't know of any regulation that says you must attend and service a boiler on a particular day because the occupant wants it serviced? Get as much information from the customer, get the manual and familiarise yourself with the appliance, then visit and have a 'walk in the park'.
Besides, even if the occupant tells you they have the manual, I still go on the net, download the manual and familiarise myself with it (I do this if its a boiler I'm not familiar with).

 

[kirkgas]

I don't do many jobs now, but like others have said, I download the MI first, I've now got 1000's from various sources, but if I don't have what I want I go and get it first, but I also email it to the customer so they have it for the next engineer, ok not something I would do for everyone, but any jobs I do now are for family, friends, or their family etc so I don't mind giving them the instructions for later

 

[stevetheplumber]

decrotive fires are the worst items during the seventies and eighties reclaimed fire place were all the rage and everyone who sold them had a bloke who could weld up a sandfilled box to fit the hearth no ffds just a tap and no instructions mostly no plate if you were lucky they had a bp on a sticker
i dont care how good your phone tablet or laptop is village and how many subscriptions you have there never were any mi's so your not going to find them

 

[combo]

I was thinking more of when your servicing on social housing and service contracts, we used to get given a list of houses and you didn't know what was in there, till you got in....8-12 a day, not much time for rooting out MI's

 

[village idiot]

decrotive fires are the worst items during the seventies and eighties reclaimed fire place were all the rage and everyone who sold them had a bloke who could weld up a sandfilled box to fit the hearth no ffds just a tap and no instructions mostly no plate if you were lucky they had a bp on a sticker
i dont care how good your phone tablet or laptop is village and how many subscriptions you have there never were any mi's so your not going to find them

Las far as subscriptions for manuals go, I have none, but always find what I want most of the time. As I've said earlier, for those I cannot find, I phone/mail the manufacturer and they either mail me a copy or send one by post.
If it comes to what you say that there's no way I can get the manual, then from my point of view, I'll make my excuses and ask them to get someone else in. I personally do not like turning up on a job 'blindly' then start scratching my head and wondering what precisely to do as no relevant info.

 

[AWheating]

I was thinking more of when your servicing on social housing and service contracts, we used to get given a list of houses and you didn't know what was in there, till you got in....8-12 a day, not much time for rooting out MI's

I didn't realise the gas regs were different for social housing contracts

if your turning up without the right info then how do you know what materials you need like burner seals etc...... I know on these contracts your expected to just do a fga reading and visual the cooker and get off. But then you need the instructions for the figures anyway don't you.

 

[GrahamM]

Instead of going round sticking an AR label on appliances you do not have access to MI's to, why not invest in a decent phone, laptop etc and pay a subscription or similar so you can download MIs wherever you find yourself? Some sites provide them for free, some sites you have to register.

Personally, I avoid turning to service an appliance ''blindly''. I ask the customer questions in advance of attending and try and find out if the have the MI? If not, can they give me any more information? Make, Model of appliance? If they can, then I download the MI in advance of attending and familiarise myself with whatever areas I will need to deal with. When at property, I can always just crosscheck any areas on the downloaded MI on my iPhone. If happen to attend and find it's an appliance I have no access to MI, I inform custard the info is relevant, then just look over boiler and make good my exit. I will not feel comfy capping up an old deer just because it is ''bread & butter''.

Some of us may be on social housing/BG contract work and do not have that luxury of knowing what they are going to until 8am that day.
I come across at least 1 fire a week with no MI's and possibly no identification at all left on the fire.

 

[combo]

It's just a shame that you can't proceed with a service all because you don't have the instructions to show you the coal layout or the specific spillage point....I just think as a professional person we should be allowed to use our training and experience. There's millions of ppl who take their coals off and hoover them every month in UK - without MI's....but, alas, the gas regs are the gas regs

 

[combo]

That was the point of my initial posting on this

 

[newcastle phill]

Its a bit crazy.
Probably a good serviceable appliance that cant be serviced because of a lack of MI.
So because of that it stays in situ unserviced and continues to be used ?

 

[AWheating]

i dont see the problem. the appliance has been designed, tested and certified to work a specific way. Its been decided by the designer that it needs to be spillage tested at a certain point for a certain reason to comfirm its working. After all that effort why should you not want to check its working as designed? because you dont want to bother searching for the instructions is not a "professional" reason to not do your job correctly. If you cant get the instructions you cant do your job correctly. Your job tho is to ensure its working as designed.

 

[newcastle phill]

I think the issue is they arent sure how to test it as no MI to refer too or rating plate.

with no MI can the BS can be referred to re ventilation and the kw calculated from gas rate with usual poc test as simple dfe fire ???

 

[AWheating]

yes you can measure the gas rate, but how do you know its correct without manufacturers data? is the injector worn, or incorrectly sized? without manufacturers data you cant even confirm its designed for use with natural gas really.

 

[newcastle phill]

Indeed.
Just seems mad that although it cant be serviced it can continue to be used whatever hidden danger it may present ?

 

[albatross]

British Gas used to have a system classifying appliances as 'Category X, Y or Z' I can't remember it properly as it was rarely used and I left ten years ago and it may not apply now but it was for appliances that were not GC listed/so old there was no data/weird imports/pre gas conversion/lost data badge etc etc. Depending on the appliances lack of data it would fall into X,Y or Z category and there was a written down method for servicing it on a best endeavours basis.

Someone might remember it or is there any BG lads on here?

Saying that, these days if I could not cover my arris by having all the correct data I would cap it off. None of us get paid enough for a service to be taking chances with grey areas that could back fire on you if the worst happened and you were stood in court.

 

[Killy Bing]

Hmm my view...

without the databadges + heat input.

how can you 100% say the meter is big enough!

 

[Ermintrude]

Hmm my view...

without the databadges + heat input.

how can you 100% say the meter is big enough!

Some bigg bum fire doing 6m3 !

 

[northcarr]

If i go to do a cp12 and find an inset fire i alway's get the instruction's either from the owner or the net otherwise ar. I at least take it out to check the flue is clear and give it the one over,i find people never tend to service them. I went to do a cp12 last month and tennant informed me that the fire had not been out in 11yr (old victorian house) omg is it just me going overboard do you guys remove them on a cp12?.

 

[acecharly]

Ive allways avoided fires when I can but for a CP12 you are required to do exactly the same checks and tests as when installing. For example you may perform a spillage test which passes fine but without removing the fire how can you tell the flue is clear? If there is no liner how can you tell that no mortar is missing from the brickwork? or that any gas pipe inside the builders entrance is taped up?

In reality as soon as you do any work on a gas appliance you are then from that point responsible for it, so a lack of identification should mean you disconnect it and make it safe until it can be identified and tests performed on it to the MI.

 

[AWheating]

Ive allways avoided fires when I can but for a CP12 you are required to do exactly the same checks and tests as when installing. For example you may perform a spillage test which passes fine but without removing the fire how can you tell the flue is clear? If there is no liner how can you tell that no mortar is missing from the brickwork? or that any gas pipe inside the builders entrance is taped up?

In reality as soon as you do any work on a gas appliance you are then from that point responsible for it, so a lack of identification should mean you disconnect it and make it safe until it can be identified and tests performed on it to the MI.

agree ,gas regs 26.9


(9) Where a person performs work on a gas appliance he shall immediately thereafter examine—

(a)the effectiveness of any flue;

(b)the supply of combustion air;

(c)its operating pressure or heat input or, where necessary, both;

(d)its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning,


so without the instructions and data badge information you can not do this.

same can be said for visual risk assessment, which requires you to check adequate ventilation? writing visual checks only for an appliance you have not been asked to service is fine, but you need to do alittle more than just look.

 

[combo]

At the end of the day there's a limit to what you can do, no one can say that something is 100% safe, without checking every part of the system, all you can do is your best. Ppl working for councils have 10-12 services a day to get through, they can be houses with three/four appliances. The pay probably works about about tenner a property.
Whoever decided that AR appliances should be turned off, knew full well that most customers/tenants will turn them straight back on again once the engineer has gone, in fact in a strange way, you could say by servicing a fire without instructions and then labeling it as AR, your encouraging the customer to use it...they'll just see a freshly serviced/checked fire.

 

[AWheating]

the number of appliances should have no bearing on safety of the work done. If your rushing to the point of cutting corners then its prob best to find a better job. Ive worked on such contracts and know what some engineers do to get so many jobs done, id rather not be in the trade then put lives at risk.

 

[combo]

I remember being on a council contract, a whole estate with fire/bbu, Robby willy fire in back room and a cooker, I got it down to where I could get 6/7 done in a day...done properly - whole day and you go home covered in muck. You'd turn in the next morning to hand your jobs in and some other lads are handing 10/11/12 jobs in ( and bragging how they got off a 3pm )....there's no way they could possibly be doing them safely. This is why you'd go to back-boiler and there'd be a load of smoke pellets thrown in behind the burner from previous safety checks.....

 

[AWheating]

I went onto a job where i knew lads doing 12 plus a day with maxol 5 units with fires, 1 to 2 other fires and convector heaters in each property. Most of the time id check the name of the last engineer and know if i was in for bad one. you would get the usuall "why are you removing the fire? the last few guys never did that". I found some really bad things, even catchments filled above the appliance spigs.

now i see alot of service engineers just enter a property with there FGA and a few screwdrivers, even tho the MI requires you to strip, inspect and clean when needed. The problem is they are coverd by the contract, if they screw up its a work mate who gets them out of the dodo.

 

[rpm]

I went onto a job where i knew lads doing 12 plus a day with maxol 5 units with fires, 1 to 2 other fires and convector heaters in each property. Most of the time id check the name of the last engineer and know if i was in for bad one. you would get the usuall "why are you removing the fire? the last few guys never did that". I found some really bad things, even catchments filled above the appliance spigs.

now i see alot of service engineers just enter a property with there FGA and a few screwdrivers, even tho the MI requires you to strip, inspect and clean when needed. The problem is they are coverd by the contract, if they screw up its a work mate who gets them out of the dodo.

Same in my game AW, the guv used to moan at me for my site times until I asked him to compare my call back rate to others. Only problem is I now find I have to cover their backsides to the customers for the same pay!

 

[PlumbersMate]

I went onto a job where i knew lads doing 12 plus a day with maxol 5 units with fires, 1 to 2 other fires and convector heaters in each property. Most of the time id check the name of the last engineer and know if i was in for bad one. you would get the usuall "why are you removing the fire? the last few guys never did that". I found some really bad things, even catchments filled above the appliance spigs.

now i see alot of service engineers just enter a property with there FGA and a few screwdrivers, even tho the MI requires you to strip, inspect and clean when needed. The problem is they are coverd by the contract, if they screw up its a work mate who gets them out of the dodo.

When you say strip and clean where needed, do you mean if combustion proves to be wrong, or do some boilers require it regardless?

 

[combo]

It depends what your doing, when i worked for BG, it was just an inspection ( so long as FG analysis was within tolerance )...but then they never claimed it was a service. Full manufacturers service involves cleaning H-E....

 

[Dotty]

Just spotted this. moved to private forum.