Gas At risk notice on hob

[rob42]

My partner owns a house which she lived in for 20 years and started renting out 2 years ago. First 2 gas inspections found no problems, but the engineer doing the third one put an "At Risk" notice on the hob, giving the reason "pipe to small".

The notice said the hob had been disconnected and was both dangerous and illegal to use. Disconnection consisted of removing the button for the spark ignition and putting the sticker over the hole. Gas was still on, and the hob could still be used by lighting with a match or just pressing the sticker in the right place.

Pipework to the hob is as follows: 22 mm copper from the meter connects to an approx 27 mm OD steel pipe which runs in the (concrete) kitchen floor to the hob. (I'm not used to steel pipe, but 27 mm OD I think is 3/4" BSP?) The steel pipe then connects to 10mm copper up to the hob.

Pipe lengths: steel approx 4m, with one elbow I can see, and presumably one more where it comes out of the floor (possibly 2 if it goes up in the wall). 10mm copper approx 1.5m, no elbows, hand bent, one isolating valve.

The only other gas appliance in the house is an old system boiler fed by 15mm copper which tees off from the 22mm from the meter just before the iron coupler.

I can see that the 10 mm pipe should really be 15 mm, but is there actually a significant risk here? With all 4 burners lit, the flames on the hob are stable. The others increase slightly when the big one is turned off, but not much. (Hob is a standard 4 burner 1 big, 2 medium, 1 small.)

Replacing the 10 mm pipe is difficult because accessing the end of the steel pipe involves removing a run of kitchen units - it would probably be easier to start again on the outside wall.

Can we ask the inspecting engineer for more information on what he thinks the problem is? If there's a real risk we'll get it sorted, but I'm a little doubtful.

 

[kirkgas]

the way he has left it is perfectly acceptable, AR only requires us to shut it off, which is what he has done.
re the problem, we dont have enough info to determine "how" dangerous it is, a common issue with this scenario is gas starvation to the hob when the boiler fires up, starvation causes the flame to out on the hob, then when the boiler goes off the unburnt gas goes back through to the hob and could bulid up to dangerous levels, if the hob has FSD's (which shut the gas supply down if the hob is starved) would be classed as NCS (Not to Current Standards) lighting the hob as you have done isnt really showing you anything, even if you checked the hob with the boiler on you still wont know what the pressure is, and at peak demand time when the incoming pressure is even lower the level of risk significantly increases

 

[ocentric]

Did he gas rate the hob? That would confirm whether it's dangerous or not.

 

[GrahamM]

Going by your description of the change in flame picture when you turn of the large burner it sounds like the gas supply may be the problem. There are other procedures which would have given the engineer a more detailed view on how safe the appliance is operating.
Do feel free to question the engineer for a more detailed explanation of his findings.

 

[Reg Man]

The gas engineer is correct in his diagnosis, because the flame picture is effected when you turn the large hotplate burner off. Isolating the ignition is probalbly not the correct method. The gas isolation valve if there is one, should have been turned off and warning label attached. The requirement is: turn the appliance off and warn the customer that the appliance should not be used. disconnecting the ignition is not turning it off, as you quite rightly say, you can light it manually.

 

[kirkgas]

The gas engineer is correct in his diagnosis, because the flame picture is effected when you turn the large hotplate burner off. Isolating the ignition is probalbly not the correct method. The gas isolation valve if there is one, should have been turned off and warning label attached. The requirement is: turn the appliance off and warn the customer that the appliance should not be used. disconnecting the ignition is not turning it off, as you quite rightly say, you can light it manually.

this is not a mandatory requirement for an AR appliance, it is perfectly acceptable to "turn it off" as per usual operation the way the customer turns it off every day, ie a central heating boiler can be turned off by turning the timeclock to off, and if a combi advise them not to turn on a tap,
if you are saying it is a requirement to turn off at the iso valve i would suggest you should then confirm the iso valve isnt passing, i wouldnt touch it at all, AR is turned off and advise not to use

 

[Reg Man]

Yes depends on interpretation of of Unsafe sits procedure. Will give you a PM first on an event that has happened.

 

[kirkgas]

Yes depends on interpretation of of Unsafe sits procedure. Will give you a PM first on an event that has happened.

i'm not disagreeing with your desire to do the job right, and isolating would always be safer than turning off, but it would be interesting to hear of an incident which was different to what i have always done with the IUP

 

[GrahamM]

If something is 'AR', you "TURN OFF THE APPLIANCE" not isolate it. Doing this has cut the gas off to appliance which is a step closer to 'ID' procedure.
You are declaring it having the potential to become unsafe. Not the appliance is unsafe, so I am cutting the gas to it.
Under 'AR' circumstances the tenant may still use the appliance at their own risk.

 

[Reg Man]

I respect your words of wisdom. But there is a real issue on interpretation of how far you go to ensure the customer is taking the risk seriously. What is meant by turn off the gas appliance? I turn off the electrical switch? or turn off the gas switch?. The AR section6.4 IUSP says appliance/installation. Example: So unsealed pipe sleeve in a meter housing, AR. How do I deal with the situation (Got No FJC with me) so I am required to turn off the gas at the meter, until it can be sorted. I'm not saying your wrong in just turning the electric switch but think its all to easy for the customer to turn it back on. If you turn off the gas isolation valve the customer in most cases has to go to greater efforts to turn it back on. So if things go wrong I can confidently say I turned the gas off to the appliance so they used it at their own risk. One more view Isolate means physicaly seperating. Capping off.

 

[GrahamM]

If the unsealed pipe issue cannot be rectified there and then, with permission you turn off the ECV until can be rectified.
If the boiler is AR, you turn off at boiler power switch.
If the cooker is AR you turn off all the burners.

Why are they called isolation valves? You are isolating the gas from the appliance. You are physically separating by mechanical means.
Isolation does not necessarily mean capping off Reg Man.

An AR situation does not give you the authority to close of the gas supply to the appliance. You have the authority to explain the situation and turn off the appliance. What the customer does then is out-with your control.

 

[Reg Man]

I agree with you all, on what the IUSP says, and you all believe you are doing enough, thats fine if your happy with this. It has been suggested to me by a person in authority that the current situation is not acceptable and if the gas is not turned off on AR, it could be deemed as a breach of GSR's.

 

[GrahamM]

Currently I am doing my job as per the rules/regs/guidelines to the best of my ability. Relating to current matter discussed the rules etc. are clear enough as far as I am concerned.
Currently this is the way it is to be until any amendments come into force.
As far as I am concerned Reg Man if you isolate the gas to an AR appliance you are not following the current guidelines. Just my opinion.

 

[plumbster3456]

I would say ask customer permission to cap and get them to sign a warning notice if they dont want you to cap the pipe fill in a warning notice and get them to sign pretty straight forward this thing about putting tape over the ignition is wrong phone gas safe and ask them what they think if you don't think I am right.
If you just put tape on ignition the customer will feel peckish later on then use the cooker to maker some food trust me

 

[Reg Man]

I have discussed this query out with Gas Safe technical and they agree that the document is not that specific. They tend to agree that "turning off" a gas appliances/installation requires turning off the gas valve. The interpretation of "turning Off" will be put forward for discussion, at the next review of IUSP which will be sitting sortly. So watch this space.

 

[plumbster3456]

I have discussed this query out with Gas Safe technical and they agree that the document is not that specific. They tend to agree that "turning off" a gas appliances/installation requires turning off the gas valve. The interpretation of "turning Off" will be put forward for discussion, at the next review of IUSP which will be sitting sortly. So watch this space.

so if an appliance has the potential to be dangerous should you not ideally cap it then?

 

[kirkgas]

this is likely to be clarified soon, but a lot of us have for a long time thought turning off an appliance where the customer turns it off as not adequate for safety but tht is what it says in the IUP so it is what i do, the reason for not doing any more comes from the risk of someone saying i am over stepping the mark and capping a supply i had no right to, because when you cap a supply you need to then check your work and perhaps purge and retest which can bring its own problems, if they clarify and say the iso valve should be shut off it will be interesting to see if they demand we prove the iso isnt passing, and even it i test it and it doesnt pass who's to say it wont start passing if the customer turns it on and off a few times, the only solution is to change procedure to demand we cap an AR as we do with ID then qe are all claer and 100% safe
we shall see if they do it properly or bottle out of the right decision as they did with cooker FSD's

 

[Reg Man]

Kirk, you have concern for testing isolation valve if you turn it off. What do you do when servicing a boiler or disconnecting a cooker from a bayonette fitting. do you test after you have turned off before you carry out the service? Does the customer test the bayonette fitting when they disconnect to clean behind the cooker? We rely on the valve to a certain extent. The purpose of turning off the gas isolation valve on an AR situation, is telling everyone that there is a potential for danger and therefore I have turned the gas off. If you turn it back on you do it at your own risk. Enjoyed all of your comments, as I am with you on a very contenious issue.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

the problem with capping at ar will mean "whats the point of ar?" might as well be id,the regs need more clarification

 

[Reg Man]

I think there is a big difference between physicaly disconnecting by capping off, or turning off the gas. With ID if customer refuses you go to the ESP to take over and do the disconnection. Its up to the regulators to clarify this situation and this has been proposed so lets see what comes out of it.

 

[GrahamM]

If the AR procedure is on the cards to be reviewed and updated, I cannot see a decision being made any time soon.
The issue is you are saying it has the potential to become unsafe etc., not, it is unsafe. I for one cannot see it changing to "this appliance potentially may become dangerous sometime in future so I am cutting the gas to it". If that is the case then just do away with the AR procedure and cut straight to ID. The argument may be, at this moment in time my appliance is operating correctly, so what right have you to cut of the gas to it. This will take a lot of legislation changes to alter this procedure.
As kirky mentioned you could also be opening up a can of worms by messing around with iso valves that can be a little delicate at times. So again the AR procedure would need to be made an offence for an unqualified person to reinstate the gas in my book. So again there would be no point in having AR when there is ID.

 

[kirkgas]

Kirk, you have concern for testing isolation valve if you turn it off. What do you do when servicing a boiler or disconnecting a cooker from a bayonette fitting. do you test after you have turned off before you carry out the service? Does the customer test the bayonette fitting when they disconnect to clean behind the cooker? We rely on the valve to a certain extent. The purpose of turning off the gas isolation valve on an AR situation, is telling everyone that there is a potential for danger and therefore I have turned the gas off. If you turn it back on you do it at your own risk. Enjoyed all of your comments, as I am with you on a very contenious issue.

if i'm leaving a bayonet as a permanent point of isloation i do a TT to confirm it is completely shut, if i disconnect a cooker to do something i dont, as im there and in charge of a short term situation and the cooker will be going back in, again i dont with a boiler service as im there and re-connecting it again soon, however to isolate an appliance and leave it as it is AR is different as we have no idea when or if it will ever be resolved so the valve could be off for ever, therefore increasing risk to the customer, i have had cause to pull up contractors in the past on kitchen refurb contracts who had labourers disconnecting the cookers at the bayonet in the morning of a 2 day job, with no tests getting done, then occasionally you get a leaking bayonet being reported as a gas leak, their gaffer said they are allowed to disconnect it as the customer is allowed it isnt a gas job, fine i said but you cant leave a bayonet for a couple of days without checking it is ok in case you have a leak at it, the leak goes unnoticed all day as the door is open all day with loads of people going in and out, its only when the guys go away at night that the smell builds up, i think if there was an explosion caused by this the contractor would be in trouble a they have a care of duty to only deploy competant people to do work in peoples houses, so back to our scenario of shutting off an iso vale and not checking it is fully off, i would be blaming the guy who turned off something he knew was AR and didnt take ALL steps to ensure his work didnt increase risk to customers, because using IUP as it is at the moment he would simply shut off appliance and advise customer not to use,

 

[metaldust9]

i agree with you both and also i would write on gas safety certificate what id done so if they do switch it back on your covered cos you have it in writing