External frost stat is in action or not doing anything?

[Jurgenjay]

Hi,

I have an external frost stat which I am not sure if it is in use or not. I had an electrician opened it and checked it, he said it is live. But he is not sure if it is in action or not....
I took a photo, could anyone confirm as the position it is, is this frost stat in action i.e. will protect boiler if temperature drops to some degree? If yes, what temperature it is set?

Thank you!

 

[Jurgenjay]

It could be wired wrong, it could be a dodgy stat or not sitting on cylinder properly. A photo of the cylinder and stat would help.
John raises a good point as well. If the cylinder stat is set to 60°c then the boiler flow should be higher.

Please see attached photo of stat on cylinder and cylinder, if they are good to judge?
Please refer to my last reply to John that how I set the cylinder temperature and boiler heating temperature.

 

[SJB060685]

The theory revolves around the first law of thermodynamics. Basically if the water leaving your boiler is max 60°c then the maximum temperature the water in the cylinder could ever be is 60°c. You have the cylinder stat at 65°c which in my opinion is 5°c too high because if you’re in a hard water area this temperature can cause lime scale to form. Set the cylinder stat to 60°c and leave the boiler at about 70°c. Any higher and you start to lose any condensing

 

[John.g]

The divisions on the cylinder stat are extraordinary at 6.66C/division just to create more of a challenge when setting it?.

Anyway, to test the stat, just turn it down and see if the HW cylinder zone valve closes while programmed on.

 

[Jurgenjay]

The theory revolves around the first law of thermodynamics. Basically if the water leaving your boiler is max 60°c then the maximum temperature the water in the cylinder could ever be is 60°c. You have the cylinder stat at 65°c which in my opinion is 5°c too high because if you’re in a hard water area this temperature can cause lime scale to form. Set the cylinder stat to 60°c and leave the boiler at about 70°c. Any higher and you start to lose any condensing

Thank you for letting me know this theory!
My cylinder stat is not set as 65°c, it is about 60-65°c. It is because between 65°c---45°c the gap is 20°c, there are 3 gaps, so i set it between 65°c and the next mark.
The reason I set on that position (60-65°c )is because I learned that the hot water should be set over 60°c in order to kill legionella bacteria. (as attached picture)
So for my cylinder stat temperature, I should/could turn the heating setting knob smaller, say between 4-5 to make it around 71°c ?(this attached photo2)

 

[John.g]

That sound correct Jurgen but to check correct wiring, you might do the test I suggested in post #33.

 

[Jurgenjay]

The divisions on the cylinder stat are extraordinary at 6.66C/division just to create more of a challenge when setting it?.

Anyway, to test the stat, just turn it down and see if the HW cylinder zone valve closes while programmed on.

Exactly! Not sure why they designed and produced the stat like that!

Your solution to test the stat proved right! A few months ago, the very first time when we found the boiler was still firing even the programmer was off, the zone valve for hot water was opened, by chance, we turned the stat of the cylinder smaller, and saw the zone valve closed and boiler stopped, so at the time we could see the stat temperature setting seems working.
(then next time when it happened again: zone valve for hot water opened & boiler fired outside of programmer setting period, even if we turned the stat of cylinder smaller, boiler still continued to fire, so second time maybe zone valve issue.)

 

[SJB060685]

Yes legionella bacteria is killed off at 60°c. Yes set boiler control stat to that but no higher. The dew point for natural gas boilers starts at around 57°c, so your return water temperature needs to be that or lower, the lower the return temperature the greater the condensing. You also get greater condensing when the boiler is at part load but I won’t go into that now. If I was designing your system I would of done things a lot differently but that’s irrelevant now. As John says run his test to see what happens to the HW valve.

 

[SJB060685]

Depends on how it’s wired. If the frost stat by passes the cylinder stat it will hold the valve open,

 

[John.g]

Re cylinder stat, with HW programmed on, turn stat down and note what its setting is, (check zone valve closing), turn stat back up slowly to reopen the zone valve, note the setting then turn it back down again to close the zone valve, gain note the setting, there should be ~ 5/8C differential.

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Re cylinder stat, with HW programmed on, turn stat down and note what its setting is, (check zone valve closing), turn stat back up slowly to reopen the zone valve, note the setting then turn it back down again to close the zone valve, gain note the setting, there should be ~ 5/8C differential.

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

I got your point for how to turn and note the temperatures. That will have 3 temperatures?
i.e. 1st temperature: turn down when zone valve closes; 2nd temperature: turn up when zone valve opens; 3rd turn down again to close the zone valve.
So three temperature notes---to test what? Sorry I don't understand this?

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.---is attached photo good to see? (if not, I can take another one)

 

[Jurgenjay]

Yes legionella bacteria is killed off at 60°c. Yes set boiler control stat to that but no higher. The dew point for natural gas boilers starts at around 57°c, so your return water temperature needs to be that or lower, the lower the return temperature the greater the condensing. You also get greater condensing when the boiler is at part load but I won’t go into that now. If I was designing your system I would of done things a lot differently but that’s irrelevant now. As John says run his test to see what happens to the HW valve.

so I am going to turn the boiler temperature control smaller, something between level 4--5, about 71°c, or 70°c or 72°c.
My installed system has caused me so much trouble..... I wonder how you would design it! Anything could be better!
The worse thing is the boss/gas engineer of my system does NOT know any of those questions I raised here........

 

[Jurgenjay]

Depends on how it’s wired. If the frost stat by passes the cylinder stat it will hold the valve open,

Your this comment I think could explain for what happened in the morning on 21st of Jan when it was very cold, my boiler started to fire for 4 hours outside of the programmer setting time.

 

[SJB060685]

I would set the boiler control knob to 5 which is a flow temp of 74°c ish.
If I was designing your system I would of designed a low temperature system with a boiler with good modulation and PDHW (priority domestic hot water) on either weather compensation or load compensation, that depends on a few things There are lots of advantages to low temperature heating systems. Less fuel consumption, better condensing, greater levels of comfort and cleaner air due to lower convection currents, better for the environment and so on. It is alarming that the boss of the company who installed this system is not fully clued up.

 

[John.g]

I got your point for how to turn and note the temperatures. That will have 3 temperatures?
i.e. 1st temperature: turn down when zone valve closes; 2nd temperature: turn up when zone valve opens; 3rd turn down again to close the zone valve.
So three temperature notes---to test what? Sorry I don't understand this?

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.---is attached photo good to see? (if not, I can take another one)

I just want to ensure that the valve closes, re opens and closes again and also to check the cylinder stat differential (hysteresis) temperature between cut in and cut out.
I think the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from your photo.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I would set the boiler control knob to 5 which is a flow temp of 74°c ish.
If I was designing your system I would of designed a low temperature system with a boiler with good modulation and PDHW (priority domestic hot water) on either weather compensation or load compensation, that depends on a few things There are lots of advantages to low temperature heating systems. Less fuel consumption, better condensing, greater levels of comfort and cleaner air due to lower convection currents, better for the environment and so on. It is alarming that the boss of the company who installed this system is not fully clued up.

Right now it is 74°c(according to photo2), please see attached photo1. The stat on cylinder is between 60°c--65°c, something around 61°c?
So based on your theory should be 10°c higher, I should turn the boiler heating setting to around 71°c? (Turn to level 4 direction).

Your design looks good! But it is late now....

The boss's name and company are registered on the Wocester Bosch boiler website, so I picked him who should know the boiler system in theory!
The actual installation was done by his team member who left him, the boss did the commission.
But since I moved in, LOTS of problems happened! I can list 10 big issues here....
Worse of all, he came and checked, but he could not understand where/why gone wrong, I had to spend plenty of time here to get consultancy! I learn from you guys and got clearer answers than the one I paid over 5K for the system!!

 

[SJB060685]

Yes leave at those settings you mentioned above. Note if the rads struggle to get to temperature during extreme weather you may need to increase the flow temperature knob a bit but all these things should be considered during design stage. I’m not a fan of Worcester boilers personally but your system is installed now.
Most of us engineers on here are happy to help if possible. Myself and John here are passionate about what we do and if we can help and educate a little we will.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I just want to ensure that the valve closes, re opens and closes again and also to check the cylinder stat differential (hysteresis) temperature between cut in and cut out.
I think the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from your photo.

Re cylinder stat, with HW programmed on, turn stat down and note what its setting is, (check zone valve closing), turn stat back up slowly to reopen the zone valve, note the setting then turn it back down again to close the zone valve, gain note the setting, there should be ~ 5/8C differential.

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

Hi John, following your advice I have tested the stat and noted down each time temperatures. Please see below:

Photo1: turned down stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was closing. The temperature is around 48°C;
Photo2: Turned up stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was opening. The temperature is around 58°C;
Photo3: turned down stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was closing. The temperature is around 48°C;
Photo4: Turned up stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was opening. The temperature is around 58°C;

So, these mean the cylinder stat is working with no issue?

Thank you!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

Hi John,
Yesterday the photo maybe not clear, I have taken again for you to see if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder?
Thanks again!

 

[John.g]

Everything looks good to me

 

[Jurgenjay]

Everything looks good to me

Everything---You mean both "stat on cylinder" and "if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder" are good?

Do you know "only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained"---if this is an issue?

Thanks!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Yes leave at those settings you mentioned above. Note if the rads struggle to get to temperature during extreme weather you may need to increase the flow temperature knob a bit but all these things should be considered during design stage. I’m not a fan of Worcester boilers personally but your system is installed now.
Most of us engineers on here are happy to help if possible. Myself and John here are passionate about what we do and if we can help and educate a little we will.

Many thanks!
Really appreciate your input and John's!
As said, I know more from you guys online then the so called gas engineer I paid thousands of pounds!

 

[SJB060685]

Many thanks!
Really appreciate your input and John's!
As said, I know more from you guys online then the so called gas engineer I paid thousands of pounds!

Just promise us you won’t have him/them return. It’s alarming someone who advertises this line of work doesn’t even know the basics. I would seek advice from another G3 installed engineer as well as it would appear the frost stat is by passing the cylinder stat and controlling the HW zone valve. I’m not convinced that’s legal, logic would say not but I’m not currently G3 certified.

 

[John.g]

Everything---You mean both "stat on cylinder" and "if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder" are good?

Do you know "only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained"---if this is an issue?

Thanks!

Everything---You mean both "stat on cylinder" and "if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder" are good?

Do you know "only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained"---if this is an issue?

Thanks!

Yes, the stat position and stat operation are fine. The combination valve is often/normally mounted low down, you don't need a step ladder then to service it?

 

[Jurgenjay]

Yes, the stat position and stat operation are fine. The combination valve is often/normally mounted low down, you don't need a step ladder then to service it?

Thanks John!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Just promise us you won’t have him/them return. It’s alarming someone who advertises this line of work doesn’t even know the basics. I would seek advice from another G3 installed engineer as well as it would appear the frost stat is by passing the cylinder stat and controlling the HW zone valve. I’m not convinced that’s legal, logic would say not but I’m not currently G3 certified.

Yes, you are right that something for sure is wrong with my HW control, i.e. zone valve for HW never closed & burner light is off/on every couple of minutes, blue light is always on, even if the programmer is on for a long time---as long as programmer is on.

And you help me more make decision that not to call him for the warranty---my new boiler only a few months installed, it is well in the warranty period, but what is the point calling him if he does NOT know how the boiler is working?!
How could he be Woecster Bosch registered engineer then??
And he has not given me unvented cylinder system installation certificate as he is not G3 qualified I just found out...

 

[SJB060685]

Providing the boiler has been installed to manufacturers instructions then Worcester themselves would send an engineer should there be a warranty call. It’s just disheartening when a customer puts their faith in a guy/firm and pays thousands in your case for a system less than ideal. The old saying “a good engineer is an engineer for life” holds true. Hopefully you can find someone more qualified in the future.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Providing the boiler has been installed to manufacturers instructions then Worcester themselves would send an engineer should there be a warranty call. It’s just disheartening when a customer puts their faith in a guy/firm and pays thousands in your case for a system less than ideal. The old saying “a good engineer is an engineer for life” holds true. Hopefully you can find someone more qualified in the future.

Wocester Bosch did send an engineer came to check and confirmed to me: There's nothing wrong with boiler itself, it is the control or wiring issue, you should call your installer....
Not only boiler, but also newly installed radiators not all hot (half hot, half warm or cold); underground pipes bursted; bathroom pipe bursted, radiator leaked etc. all problems were done by this same guy!

 

[SJB060685]

Jesus. He sounds more like a handyman than a certified heating engineer.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Jesus. He sounds more like a handyman than a certified heating engineer.

He is registered on Worcester Bosch website, and he is on Checktrade but no review since last year August (just by time finished my boiler system installation).
For the questions I raised here (you may search this site I raised a lot of questions) he could not answer or sort out, thus I had to try to find answers myself.
He had a team member who did the boiler installation but left him now, I am not sure whether this is the reason he does not know the boiler because all boiler installation works were done by someone else?

During the boiler installation and after it, the boiler leaked water in garage!
Then upstairs all new radiators leaked water which flooded the house;
then one individual radiator leaked again which could not stop the water which resulted in downstairs celling with water dropped;
then underground pipes bursted which resulted in newly fitted marble floor was hammered and dug a hole;
then bathroom pipe bursted which made newly decorated house celling been flooded;

I have to stop otherwise it could be a further long list to go.....

 

[SJB060685]

I hope you claimed off his insurance!?