crazy system! ... biiiig job looming for someone me thinks

[Neil T]

I've been doing some work for a good customer of mine on a residential home. It's a converted 300 yr old hall with 24 bedrooms on 3 floors as well as 3 bathrooms, dining room common room and kitchens, and as you can imagine, the system has been modified alot since c/h was first installed.
Beginning of last year they changed the system to biomass and since then it's gone wotsits up. Regular problems with the biomass shutting off due to one thing or another and the installers are based in plymouth (i think) while the home is in colwyn bay so they aren't exactly local.
Since the biomass was installed, rads that working originally do not work now and 2 that didn't (in the basement) are pumping out heat but typically don't have valves.
I've done some investigating all the way from under the hall in bat, rat and mouse doodaa all way up to the lofty roof space and more bat doodaa.
The rads that don't work now are original cast rads on a 2" steel single pipe system. The system that works is onon 3/4 steel with a number of updated rads on 15mm copper. There is another run from the manifold that feeds 3 rads that I think has a blockage, as return is cold to luke warm and flow can't get up to top floor. This run also has an f&e above it. I was trying to suss out the biomass as to whether it was a closed system and whether the f&e should now be decomm'd?
Some of the staff sdaid that the biomass lot did a 20 min survey and said their system would be adequate and went off. I don't believe for one min that they sized up the whole system properly, regarding the installed pipework that is. The boilers may be the dogs and heat and supply h/w that they need but I reckon they should've decomm'd the single pipe system and installed new f and r system personally.
The home has had another heating co in in mean time to sort some of probs out and they were reluctant to take on the job as amount of steel work that needs replacing was too big ... sorry, too much hassle for them.
I'm a one man band at min and want to sort this prob out for them (and the old dears that reside there) as heat for eldery is a must, but I fear that it's way too big for me. I would like to say "rip it out and repipe the lot" but that would take weeks and it's not practical or cheap!
At a bit of a loss really as which way to advise them tbh, any ideas peeps?

 

[Neil T]

As an after thought ... what, if any, consequences would there be if I shut off working system run and see if either of other 2 runs unblock or at least warm a bit? Not permenantly obviously, but just to see if any water flows around system for about 30 to 60 mins.
Thanks

 

[hammers4spanner]

pm me name of firm please

 

[SimonG]

Repipe. Its the only way to go. You just dont know how much cack is in there.

 

[Neil T]

the biomass lot hammers?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Yeah was in suppliers in Plymouth and firm I know was moaning about a bio mass job in cornwall

 

[Neil T]

while I was there one time, one of the bio lads asked me to fit a aav for him as he said there was probably air in system thats why some rads weren't working and he wanted to get off back home. told him it wasn't now't to do with me and if i touched it then i'd be liable ... so noooo chance matey, you're here for another night fella

 

[Neil T]

SimonG - i agree mate, but cos the old system has been added to and where pipes are, some inaccessible, it would mean ripping large sections of flooring, walls, decomm of all that steel and not to mention disruption to routines of the care home ... i'm not all that sure customer is going to take that route tbh

 

[SimonG]

How about on a smaller scale. Leave old system in and pipe up new zones. Link back into existing and the decommission existing? Coming into a good time of year to do it.

 

[Neil T]

what are your thoughts on cutting off working system to see if other 2 runs work?

 

[Neil T]

the thought of cutting up all that 2" steel somewhat eludes me tbh lol

 

[Neil T]

i have thought of branching off the working system to to rads that don't work and replacing with new rads but it's joining up with 3/4 steel and i'm a one man band with no steel work kit.
if there's someone out there with the right kit in wales or adjoining areas (cheshire, shrops, or anywhere tbh) who'll take job on at - reasonable - price and give me a wage to help then let me know

 

[Neil T]

... or i'll accept a commision fee

 

[village idiot]

I've been doing some work for a good customer of mine on a residential home. It's a converted 300 yr old hall with 24 bedrooms on 3 floors as well as 3 bathrooms, dining room common room and kitchens, and as you can imagine, the system has been modified alot since c/h was first installed.
Beginning of last year they changed the system to biomass and since then it's gone wotsits up. Regular problems with the biomass shutting off due to one thing or another and the installers are based in plymouth (i think) while the home is in colwyn bay so they aren't exactly local.
Since the biomass was installed, rads that working originally do not work now and 2 that didn't (in the basement) are pumping out heat but typically don't have valves.
I've done some investigating all the way from under the hall in bat, rat and mouse doodaa all way up to the lofty roof space and more bat doodaa.
The rads that don't work now are original cast rads on a 2" steel single pipe system. The system that works is onon 3/4 steel with a number of updated rads on 15mm copper. There is another run from the manifold that feeds 3 rads that I think has a blockage, as return is cold to luke warm and flow can't get up to top floor. This run also has an f&e above it. I was trying to suss out the biomass as to whether it was a closed system and whether the f&e should now be decomm'd?
Some of the staff sdaid that the biomass lot did a 20 min survey and said their system would be adequate and went off. I don't believe for one min that they sized up the whole system properly, regarding the installed pipework that is. The boilers may be the dogs and heat and supply h/w that they need but I reckon they should've decomm'd the single pipe system and installed new f and r system personally.
The home has had another heating co in in mean time to sort some of probs out and they were reluctant to take on the job as amount of steel work that needs replacing was too big ... sorry, too much hassle for them.
I'm a one man band at min and want to sort this prob out for them (and the old dears that reside there) as heat for eldery is a must, but I fear that it's way too big for me. I would like to say "rip it out and repipe the lot" but that would take weeks and it's not practical or cheap!
At a bit of a loss really as which way to advise them tbh, any ideas peeps?

Laise with 2-3 installers on here to come and assist you sort out the job. But before you do that, make customer aware that there's a price to pay. They can choose to pay now and sort it out or hang on to their cash and have endless probs for the next two to three years

 

[Neil T]

I'm actually going to see him this weekend to tell him my findings and i've made drawings of each floor from basement to top floor showing where i've found pipework including size and type of system e.g single pipe or f & r system.
As it's a 'modern' biomass system, could i get rid of f&e tank? I assume it's based on a closed system???

 

[missplumb]

Is unlikely that the fact it's biomass has anything to do with it. Old buildings with old systems are notoriously bad to very running once drained down. I would imagine they should have put a plate exchanger between the new boiler and the old system. Sealed system for the new bit, and the old system left as is. Therefore sitting of the working parts of the system wouldn't cause any problem with the boiler. And it's most likely the system has a large buffer tank to feed the heating.

I wouldn't be happy sealing a system that has been open vented for that long, could cause more problems than you fix

 

[Neil T]

missplumb - I'm not really questioning the biomass system tbh, it's the installers as they seem to have not done their homework on the system and screwed it up to put it nicely. As I said in first post, rads that did work now don't, although they are on oldest part of system, but surely they should of commisioned it properly? ... instead of having to call out every other week for one problem or another? ... especially as it's a residential home.
The 2 biomass boilers they installed are froling P4 pellet 100 - 105kw and not sure about the plate exchanger tbh. What would one look like for this boiler and where would it be? I've seen pipes, pumps and a cylinder in the building and the boilers in a shed outside but nothing that would point to an exchanger of sorts.
Note taken on the open vent btw

 

[missplumb]

Sounds like the job I've just finished. 200kw biomass boiler in a stately home, whole system was fitted in 2008, no buffer tank, 3"steel pipework feeding radiator circuit, towel rails, pool, 500ltr direct hot water tank through a heat interface unit, not a single air vent anywhere, no isolation valves and everything drop feed from the loft down 3 floors. Our side worked perfectly but the estate plumbers haven't got a clue. They should stick to lighting the fires in the family castle.
I would imagine there should be a 4000ltr buffer tank somewhere. Can you get any pics of the boilers and plantroom

 

[Neil T]

I will speak to customer and arrange to call down again this week, as I'm in manchester and home is in colwyn bay and I obviously want to get something off him for my trouble. I will get as many pics of the whole system as i can. Prob be midweek when i can upload them.

 

[Neil T]

Spoke to the customer and the biomass boys have very kindly padlocked the boiler room over the weekend and not left a key so can't get pics in there. Customer trying to get key sorted so we can get in. Soon as get one sorted I will sort pics out.

 

[missplumb]

ah!!, its cos us biomass boys dont want fiddling fingers messing things up LOL.

 

[markfxy]

Turn off biomass fit these in every room job done or prepare the customer for a big bill you'd be better off not getting involved and letting the biomass installer sort it out it's not really your problem.

 

[Ermintrude]

U can use rigid pipe scraper to clear bigger stuff but . I would try and zone it and use separation. Watch out for asbestos

 

[Neil T]

Update ... been and got the pics, will upload them to my profile tomorrow. Customer now wants a gas fed 100kw back up boiler installed 'just in case'. Obviously need a commercial installer for that size ... know anyone in n/wales, north west areas?
While we're on commercial installers, another one of my customers is after one for their propertys in manchester area. Pm me if interested, cheers

 

[Neil T]

Pics uploaded to Biomass album on my profile ... forgot to rotate some of the pics though sorry. Will get round to sorting that soon

 

[Sparkgap]

I doubt biomass is to blame, assuming the thing's working and heating up the buffer tank okay. Was the system working before they put it in? Were any pumps or stuff changed on the heating system side or was it just hooked into the buffer? Most likely there's airlocks around the place stopping the circulation, dodgy pipework levels, missing AVs or AAVs in hidden places which have seized shut, dislodged crap from the draining/refilling blocking pipes, the usual stuff you get on old systems.

 

[Neil T]

All the system was working fine apart from one of circuits (has 3rads on it and the f&e tank and seems to
have a blockage as far as I can figure). It has had new pump fitted, shown on photos in my profile on return manifold. I've had a look around as much system as I could find and tried every valve, some are seized but they're open but no av's apart from near hw cylinder. Will power flushing help or cause more probs?
Regarding the buffer, I don't know where that is tbh. I took pics of everything I could find (see profile) just in case someone could point it out

 

[markfxy]

why is it all marked up as chilled water:confused5: threw me at first!

 

[Neil T]

CHW ... lol

 

[missplumb]

Neil, the buffer tank is the big grey tank in pic 4. Mind you from what i can tell, the plate exchanger is piped up wrong!!

 

[Neil T]

I knew it was a tank but didn't realise it was a buffer . Which is the plate exchanger? That black box behind the tank?

 

[Neil T]

In picture 2?

 

[missplumb]

Yes. Its made by Swep.

 

[Neil T]

Ok. And that's what seperates the boilers from the rest of the system to prevent any crap getting back to the boilers and messing them up I take it? So if that's piped up wrongly, and the pipework is power flushed then the boilers could get hit with all the crap, so to speak?

 

[missplumb]

no, the way they have piped it is incorrect but there is still seperation. powerflushing the existing system wont be a problem to the boiler.They have piped the primary flow and return from the boiler to the cold side of the plate and the secondary flow and return from plate to buffer is connected to the hot side of the plate therefore they wont get the full efficiency out of the plate, but none of this should cause the problem that you have, more just an observation. If it were me i would have put the plate after the buffer not before it.