Access to concealed boiler flues

[steadyon]

Can anyone tell me what the rules are for access to flues, and when these rules came into force?

I saw a flue yesterday which runs horizontally for about 5 metres between the ceiling boards of a ground floor flat and the floor of the flat above. There is no access to this flue except at the outside terminal end and inside at the other end for about 600mm above the top of the boiler (Vaillant, condensing combi). I would be surprised if there can be sufficient fall back to the boiler for the condensate given the position and length of run.

I was told by the tenant who was leaving that there had been leakage (liquid, not gas) from the flue pipe into the bedroom. Tenant also said boiler (in a cupboard with open top and base) would not work unless front cover was removed.

Property is a large three storey Victorian / Edwardian house converted into four large flats.

I have no interest in touching the boiler, flue, or anything to do with them, but would like to be able to advise the landlord to investigate and make changes if this is necessary.

Thanks

 

[ferret]

The boiler should be classed as ID and turned off , the flue is classed as in a void and should have an access at each joint , if there are signs of distress ie damp areas/staining on the cieling a risk assesment needs to be carried out there should also be no means of any escape breaching into the flat above ie void should be sealed.If you are a registered engineer you should investigate in the name of safety.

 

[aggis]

If you you've been to the property, you should have disconnected the boiler, ID & Riddor. Especially if the boiler case has to be off, for it to work & there's suspected leaks from the flue.
If you're not Gas Registered contact the landlord asap & tell him to get 1 in to deal with it.

 

[Plucky]

I would guess going by fact that boiler doesnt run without csase off that Vitiation is occuring due to incomplete flue.

By taking off boiler case boiler is taking air from in the room and is no longer room sealed which is bad enough let alone the other obvious probs.

Boiler needs ID'ing

 

[Dotty]

In addition to Plucky's reply, if you're getting condensate leaking at the flue joints then you are getting PoC's too. Assuming you're not gs you should at least advise the tenant of the flat not to use the boiler, and for them to demand the landlord have a safety check performed on it. I've said before on other threads that i don't do domestics so i'm not 100% on the legislation but i am sure landlords are legally obliged to have the appliance checked and serviced annually.

 

[steadyon]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies.

I am not gas safe registered, but am working on my portfolio to do the ACS exam. I was doing an inventory check out for the tenants at the end of their tenancy. They told me that the bedroom ceiling had been taken down to repair damp coming from the flue, then replaced with no further signs of leaks. They also told me the boiler cover had to be left off for it to operate correctly. I asked if there was a current landlord's gas safety certificate. They said there was, but it was not in the property.

I shall write to the landlords suggesting that they get a Gas Safe Registered engineer to check the whole installation. If I get to check the next lot of tenants in, then, as always, I shall check for the existence of a safety certificate. I'll be interested to see what it says!

 

[Gray0689]

Who ever gave a landlord certain is a muppet boiler door open needs ventilation
Condensate leaking on ceiling also means there is combustion gases getting out of flue (carbon monoxide)
All joints in flue need to have access to test
This is ID
If your going gas course you need to report it stright away to a gas safe and get it capped off
If you leave it and somthing happens it will be on your head as you know it's illegal and a risk to health as your doing course it won't matter that your not gas safe

 

[aggis]

Well spotted. I' d put it in writing, but immediately phone or call in & see the Landlord/Agent, & tell them to get someone onto it straight away!!
It's their responsibility to the tenants.
The thing you could have done when you'd spotted this, is mention it to the tennant & ring National Utilities Emergency 0800111999 & report it as Fumes.They'd call & disconnect the boiler & raise the necessary paperwork.

You seem the type of responsible person we need in our industry, when you're Qualified, remember always ask if you don't know, & you never stop learning!!

 

[Toddyplumb]

To give some sort of idea what your looking at we recently went to a CO alarm . We found the room sealed boiler (on the opposite side of the house) had its inner flue tube apart by about 10mm. We had co readings of over 4000ppm !!!

 

[aggis]

To give some sort of idea what your looking at we recently went to a CO alarm . We found the room sealed boiler (on the opposite side of the house) had its inner flue tube apart by about 10mm. We had co readings of over 4000ppm !!!

It's scary.
People just don't realise how little CO can affect their health or kill them, I recommend all my Landlords to fit CO Alarms in their properties. Think this should be made mandority by HSE.

 

[Dotty]

Mmmm. I agree. My son's at uni in edinburgh and moves into a new flat next month. I'm getting a new CO detector to take with him because I'm not sure i trust the letting agents. Even if they are kosher it's better to be safe than sorry.

I checked the GSIUR's this morning, read the section on landlords and thought "Ah!" expecting a couple of vitriolic posts berating me for not knowing. You must all be slipping!

But as was said earlier, that was a bloody good spot, and we do need more guys like you in the trade.

Please keep on at the landlord, if only to keep yourself covered. And take notes and photos. They'll go in your portfolio too as ID work you've spotted.

 

[kirkgas]

Mmmm. I agree. My son's at uni in edinburgh and moves into a new flat next month. I'm getting a new CO detector to take with him because I'm not sure i trust the letting agents. Even if they are kosher it's better to be safe than sorry.

I checked the GSIUR's this morning, read the section on landlords and thought "Ah!" expecting a couple of vitriolic posts berating me for not knowing. You must all be slipping!

But as was said earlier, that was a bloody good spot, and we do need more guys like you in the trade.

Please keep on at the landlord, if only to keep yourself covered. And take notes and photos. They'll go in your portfolio too as ID work you've spotted.

croppie, if your son and heir is anything like the rest of them he will take little or no interest in your advice and the co alarm will be still in the case when he next comes home to get his washing done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! try to get the phone number of the agent and ask for a copy of the cert and pm those of us in Jockland (you all think we all live in the one village and know each other anyway) and we could perhaps comment on who done it etc (if we know of them) it turns my stomach at this time of year when they all go to uni get a flat start living on their own etc only for an incident to take one of them from us, and lets not kid ourselves it is happening all over the country every year and it is caused by criminal negligence by landlords and poor gas engineers, (or those portraying themselves as competant persons) just to make a quick buck, and oh how sorry they are when their neglect harms someone

 

[stevetheplumber]

i often wonder how far our responsibilities go i have seen installs that from the outside of the property appear to be very wrong should we be reporting these to some one even though we have no involvement ?may be gas safe should have a web page where we can report suspect installs so they can flag them up for inspections but then the chances are these are the ones that wont be registered anyway
do gas safe have any remit to check an instalation without invite of the owner/tennants ?

 

[Toddyplumb]

I dont think they can do anything if the owner will not cooperate . That was my experience when I reported through CORGI. I know Gas Safe visit here so maybe they could enlighten us , to save us going to there site

 

[marfyboy]

Me shut appliance down label ID if landlord or responsable person will not let you isolate inform supplier or even better make appliance unworkable my mantra is if a danger to persons health or property ID off it goes
my bosses love me!!!!!!!

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

A landlord is required by law to get their properties or property gas tested every twelve months. End of story.

Usually they leave a copy of the test certificate with the responsible person usually the householder.

The Gas Regulations apply to everybody not just Gas Installers. Gas Installers are only people who have been on a course to study them and been tested on their knowledge about them.
However just because Gas Installers have been tested on the Regs in no way means they only apply to them.

As silly as it may seem, a householder is deemed a responsible person and the Regs apply as much to house holders as they do to Gas Installers. A bit like the usual law applies to everybody not just policemen.

That is why I advocate telling people all they want to know about gas fitting. Its also why the Health and Safety Executive govern the Gas Regs and not Gas Safe.

If there is a fault on a flue you should report it to the responsible person, who should then take the appropriate action. If they don't take action and something happens then they can be done for negligence or I hope it would never come to it, manslaughter.

The thinking is simple really. If you see or know of, something wrong do something about it, easy.

 

[buckley plumb]

i have come accross a few of these where the flue was falling wrong on a bend and blocking with condense .it scares me how gas safe are pushing for flues to run vertical through loft my moto is to keep the flue short as possible and fit boiler to external wall wherever possible .the longer the flue the more chance of damage .some makes of flue are just push fit as well.i have fitted a few keston boilers and they use standard 2" waste pipe and glued fittings i wonder what the glue joints will be like in years to come

ant

 

[stevetheplumber]

i have come accross a few of these where the flue was falling wrong on a bend and blocking with condense .it scares me how gas safe are pushing for flues to run vertical through loft my moto is to keep the flue short as possible and fit boiler to external wall wherever possible .the longer the flue the more chance of damage .some makes of flue are just push fit as well.i have fitted a few keston boilers and they use standard 2" waste pipe and glued fittings i wonder what the glue joints will be like in years to come

ant

cant say ive ever come across many problems with glue joints failing on upvc pipework provided its fixed properly i cant see why all boilers dont use the keeston way would make life so much easier for us all its probably the only good thing about keeston boilers

 

[ferret]

i have come accross a few of these where the flue was falling wrong on a bend and blocking with condense .it scares me how gas safe are pushing for flues to run vertical through loft my moto is to keep the flue short as possible and fit boiler to external wall wherever possible .the longer the flue the more chance of damage .some makes of flue are just push fit as well.i have fitted a few keston boilers and they use standard 2" waste pipe and glued fittings i wonder what the glue joints will be like in years to come

ant

I think you will find its not standard waste its ABS for the flue including the fittings , and glue and cleaner.

 

[Dotty]

I think you will find its not standard waste its ABS for the flue including the fittings , and glue and cleaner.

I happened to notice a keston boilers leaflet in my suppliers the other week (couldn't help picking it up, I used to live very near keston when I was over there, used to fish the ponds as a kid! ) but I seem to recall it promoting the fact that standard 4" waste pipe and glued fittings could be used.

I just snatched this from their website......

UNIQUE INSTALLATION BENEFITS WITH PLASTIC FLUE

Small diameter (50mm) PVC-C waste pipe is the sole requirement for the innovative new flue and air intake system. Vertically or horizontally, the flue can be extended up to 20 metres from the boiler allowing for easy and hassle-free installation, and up to 60m using 70mm Keston composite flue. The boiler can therefore be sited in the most convenient and practical locations.
The standard PVC-C waste pipe is a fraction of the cost of conventional flues and is available from all Builders merchants- therefore no more waiting days for traditional flue system extensions.
5 FLUE Q&A

Q: Does Keston really use standard kitchen waste pipe for its flueing system? A: Yes – we use standard 50mm PVC*C wastepipe to BS EN 1566 (previously BS 5255), available from buildersÇ and plumbersÇ merchants at around £3.50 per metre. Q: Is there a maximum number of bends that I can use? A: You are limited by the flue length required. For longer lengths you can select the Keston composite flue system. Q: Does each tube need to be the same length? A: No. You can draw air for combustion from one source and the flue products go elsewhere. Q: How long can I run this flue system? A: Maximum length for standard 50mm wastepipe is 20m, vertically or horizontally. Our composite flue extends up to 60m. Q: If I run the flue vertically to avoid pluming, can I draw the combustion air from the ground floor? A: Yes.
Well, there ya go!

 

[ferret]

Cripes i,ve been doing myself out of sheckles !!lol no seriousley i,m sure the last time ( prob 2 years now) i fitted one it was abs in mi,s

 

[Toddyplumb]

Solvent waste is ABS

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

kestons are really rubbish

 

[tamz]

The flues are mUPVC not ABS. Different stuff.
The ONLY good thing about a Keston. Bin the rest.

We fitted an estate with condensing boilers in the mid 80's that had 40mm mUPVC flue and intake. For the life of me i can't remember the name of them.
They came over from Ireland.

 

[GrahamM]

The flues are mUPVC not ABS. Different stuff.
The ONLY good thing about a Keston. Bin the rest.

We fitted an estate with condensing boilers in the mid 80's that had 40mm mUPVC flue and intake. For the life of me i can't remember the name of them.
They came over from Ireland.

On the button there tam. mUPVC is more resistant to temperature and the damage the flue gases may exert over time on the plasic. Also is U.V. resistant.
It should be mUPVC that is the product of choice for flues and Keston do state this in their M.I.'s.

 

[stevetheplumber]

I think you will find its not standard waste its ABS for the flue including the fittings , and glue and cleaner.

no its pvc you have to use abs isnt allowed

 

[steadyon]

I've finally got the landlord to take it on board and accept in writing that there are issues to be addressed. Thanks very much to all those who helped me out on the original posting.

 

[Dotty]

That's good mate.

Well done for spotting and highlighting the problem.