Help needed - Oil v LPG

[Ermintrude]

Re: Help needed - Oil v LPG - go for biomass!

Maybe but across europe (and they use a lot more pellets there than we do) the price has been flat for about 15 years..

Yes they will go up - however how much more will oil and lpg go!

ASHP doesn't stack up with the RHI, especially as with the GSHP you'll need to change all the radiators.

GSHP is the best setup, but then you've also got to change all the rads and need a wadge of land - also best if you have a bunch of pv to offset the leccy bill , and although you get it back handsomely you still need a fair chunk of capital.

So for most people, if you're off gas grid then biomass has to be the best oil replacement option of the lot. (of course I'm biased, and there again we were on oil for 20 years... now just waiting for the lump sum of the RHPP £2000 for a biomass boiler, and then starting in March 2014 quarterly direct credit payments into my bank just for deciding to do something a bit greener than fracking Blackpool )

Photo thermal pays best! And the fuel is free..... Back it up with oil? Then eventually bio if imports stay reasonable?

 

[Worcester]

Nope not a lot, except that just over a mile away we've got one of the best AD installations about - keeps getting good reviews and visits. It's big and exports both biogas and electricity to the grid locally... cost them over £100k just to have the roundabout put at the entrance that the highway authority insisted on to allow the trucks that were already going along that road to the landfill site to turn into the site instead!

AD is an exceeding complex area with loads and loads of controls on all aspects of the plant from initial materials handling to export metering the gas and heat. So steering clear of it for a while .

 

[Worcester]

Our personal set up : Massive PV, Massive Solar Thermal, ASHP for the office (standalone, new build), Biomass for the house, BIG thermal store to capture all the 'free' heat, multiple ImmerSun's that divert excess generated PV (and ONLY the excess because that's free) to immersion heaters top and bottom of the (unvented ) thermal store.

 

[happyflyer]

Bishops,

You need to come at this from an entirely different angle, whatever fuel you use you need to use the least you possibly can, by that I mean before you start to look at fuel types you need to insulate the property to the highest level, you need the best controls system to help you reduce the boiler runtime and you need to ensure your property is as airtight as possible.
None of this is usually consider when you have a gas main into the house, because you haven't any real need to start to look at running cost.
My take on oil and propane is slightly different, propane is a premium fuel like Nat Gas, it's clean and boilers are able to run at the highest efficiencies possible with the mess like oil, proper servicing is a must with oil and we all know that some gas boilers never get service until they breakdown, that could be 5 years. (not saying you shouldn't have gas boilers serviced - that would never do)
Like someone has already stated a propane boiler is cheap compared to oil and you would never know it was there, no smells etc. The delivery of propane I don't think is an issue and little do you know when you turn on an gas appliance in your house you are burning some propane in there anyway, it's coming in from Africa and been mixed in the services now North Sea Gas is sadly nearly all gone.
If you can get your dwelling to use the least possible energy regardless of the tree huggers, GSHP,ASHP, PV, Solar Thermal, etc the difference in running cost will be minimal.
Look at this way, typically new properties are using boilers under 10Kw, the same size house built 50 years back 30Kws, three times the energy required.

Just my slant on it.

 

[Julian_P]

I'm not sure about this 'clean fuel' thing peddled by the gas retailers. I've had two houses with oil boilers and they run just as cleanly as gas when set correctly. Also with an oil boiler you can service it yourself, which like gas, is a very simple process that does not need a degree in rocket science and therforesave yourself a bundle of cash annually.

Comparing fuel costs in terms of Kilowatt hours. Electricity is 100% efficient at the point of use, I suspect solid fuel boilers are anything but? The other major drawback with a solid fuel boiler is the inconvenience and lack of flexibility. They could be great in a care home with a caretaker on duty to look after it and dispose of the ash etc etc but in a typical home with adults that work and a house that is uninhabited for large chunks of time then it's going to be wasteful. The furniture won't thank you for being warm.

Julian

 

[Ermintrude]

http://www.solarbayer.com/Wood-boiler-HVS-E-LC.html?gclid=COac-a-J3LkCFbHKtAodeRsAYw

Connect this baby to a bank of ACV slimline sl and you have heat when u want. Massive burnout in morning or at night twice a week. Zone valves and programmable stat programmers keep waste down. Every room in my house has zone valve, built a manifold by boiler . 200000 wires though!

 

[Dotty]

I'm not sure about this 'clean fuel' thing peddled by the gas retailers. I've had two houses with oil boilers and they run just as cleanly as gas when set correctly. Also with an oil boiler you can service it yourself, which like gas, is a very simple process that does not need a degree in rocket science and therforesave yourself a bundle of cash annually.

Really?

I get fed up with this attitude. Do you prove your poc's with an fga?

Do you check your pump pressures?

Do you ensure all safety devices are working within the correct parameters?

Do you ensure the entire installation is in accordance with the regulations in force at the time?

You might be saving some money. Well done you.

You place everyone's life in jeopardy and possibly run the risk of a major environmental incident but, it's not rocket science, you've saved less than a hundred pounds a year. You must be immensely proud of yourself.

I hope you don't become a statistic.

 

[Ermintrude]

Poc & fga? Arnt they Pokemon?

 

[Julian_P]

>Really?

Indeed

>I get fed up with this attitude.

That's your prerogative

> Do you prove your poc's with an fga?

Yes

>Do you check your pump pressures?

Yes

>Do you ensure all safety devices are working within the correct parameters?

Yes

>Do you ensure the entire installation is in accordance with the regulations in force at the time?

I've no interest, the installation was fine when fitted and to suggest that one needs to constantly modify to keep up with current regs is absurd - next you'll be wanting me to retrofit my MGB with anti-lock brakes.

>You might be saving some money. Well done you.

Thank-you, I find that saving money a worthwhile activity.

>You place everyone's life in jeopardy and possibly run the risk of a major environmental incident but, it's not rocket science,

What an utter load of hyperbole and twaddle.

>you've saved less than a hundred pounds a year.

More than that, oil filters, a new tank, motor for the blower, oil pump all DIY and over ten years I've saved the thick end of 2K - money that goes into my pension fund.

>I hope you don't become a statistic.

Having worked on everything myself since I was 16 and am now 52, I have yet to become a statistic, so I'll take my chances if that's OK with you and resist the temptation to succumb to idiotic scaremongering.

Julian.

 

[Dotty]

Idiotic scaremongering?

Goodbye.

 

[Dotty]

Let this be a hint to people reading this in the future.

Having an fga and the other appropriate tools to service your own boiler doesn't make you qualified to do so.

Only the proper training does that. It also gives you access to regulations that you would be obliged to put into effect as and when required.

"It's not rocket science." And "It's idiotic scaremongering." Are cold comfort when you lose you property, your family, your life to the one thing in your house that, if given half a chance, will kill you.

 

[lame plumber]

U know ur green stuff. Had much to do with anaerobic digester? I'm interested in h2 generation.

I was working on an lpg boiler for a farmer that preheated all his cow pooh in order to start up his ad plant, which when it ran properly powered up a massive methane run generator for feeding back into the grid. sadly tho the company involved has just gone bust, so not sure if its still working at present. Only drawback to my mind is the need for 200 cows to provide enough ****

 

[Ermintrude]

U can use human poo, and for that matter any organic matter. The genny thing is very common in USA. Dairy farms with 20000 cattle all in barns so the floors are just washed down into trough. Micro generation and domestic refuse really interesting ...... Problems are bleach and bio washing products. Vegans are excellent though as normally only use lavender and natural soaps.

Pre heating? Should use heat off front end of genny!

 

[lame plumber]

you need heat for the initial start up before its producing any methane!

 

[Ermintrude]

you need heat for the initial start up before its producing any methane!

Must be running batch and not continuous . If u running continuos heat the feed stream. Batch reactors are sluggish and involve slow turn around.

Never get any interesting jobs ! Just same old carp!!!