You'll never compete....

[secret squirrel]

Got your attention, good. Its a while since I started a thread and this is possibly a bit controversial and I'm hoping for some lively debate (possibly).

I've followed a few threads about pricing, work, customers, being undercut etc.

So, what's my point, bear with it.

We, you any professional will never be able to compete on an equal footing with the chancers'.

My last job, the customer got quite a shock when presented with a bill:

The job was to re-run the hot/cold water across the house, it'd already been done but by a "postman/plumber" and it never worked properly. Long story short the entire pipe run was under sized badly run and had numerous traps. Cut it all out and started again, new 22mm to hot all pipes supported and insulated, moved the rad, tidied pipe work, drain down etc. Took me and my Dad 1.5 days with parts costing £120 (more than the postman/plumber) charged in labour. So, although it worked and the job is now done and no problems the customer was not happy with the price! Although over the moon with the result.

A while ago I quoted for a bathroom but didn't get the job I was undercut by a non-qualified bod (I know this because I know who it was) However, I did get a job next door (a few months later), change a syphon and inlet valve on a bog. The woman had a drip from one of the nuts on the cylinder (a couple of days later), I popped back within 2 hours of the call but found no drip, I kept flushing the toilet and spent about an hour there just checking, still no drip. Sitting in the house was the woman whose job i didn't get, she had a leaky waste on the new bathroom suite and had been waiting 6 weeks for her "plumber" to get back.

I offered to help but said there'd be a charge of £40 to walk in her house.

Again, I quoted to change a pump, my price was higher than the £80 already quoted, I pointed out that the Grundfos pump was £60ish, what happens if the gate valves have seized, then you need to buy 2 unions etc Apparently the pump being fitted was £30ish. My argument, "if the grundfos you've got has lasted 20+ years why would you change it for a cheaper one! £60 divided by 20 is about £3 per year!" My parting remark was "I promise you you'll end up paying more than £80"

My neighbour who is a fireman quite often (well, used to) ask my advice, borrow a tool and the odd fitting to fix "friends" plumbing....

The other day on this site the ? was "not a professional but what size spanner do I need to work on baths and sinks, I work on my own and friends houses"

Ok, we will never compete with the chancer's on price, its impossible. Overheads are too high, so, why bother trying!

Surely, the way to go is service! if, theres a problem turn up promptly, correct it. Turn up on time etc. Like most of us do.

I'm open for your opinions, views and critism

 

[WaterTight]

Problem is if you're esablished and busy you can keep trading on customer service and reliability alone. If you're quite new to the game your integrity and good customer service won't necessarily be enough. You might also have to be dirt cheap. I lost a syphone change yesterday because my cheap quote apparently wasn't cheap enough. If I was getting 3 or 4 calls a day I'd stick to my guns. But because I'm not I'm thinking the next one I'm offered I'll just have to be even cheaper.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

people are now more driven by price than quality, that dont look at the long run.

take the circulation pump for example the guy can fit one and reolve the issue at a much lower price than you and customer is happy, he is not going to say oh by the way it will probs only last 5 or 6 years

 

[JohnnyDollar]

Finding exactly the same thing, me and the guy I work with have a building company. I mainly do the plumbing but turn my hand to other stuff as well.

We know we're not the cheapest but we guarantee all our work and provide proper back up for any problems.

But as you say there are so many chancers and people who won't do the job properly that it is hard to compete, no scrap that, impossible to compete.

But you’re absolutely right, do the best job you can, be polite, honest and on time and work should still come in.

To be honest that was one of the reasons I retrained as a plumber. There were so many cowboys that the industry was getting such a bad rep that I thought surely if you did all the above you must be able to build up a client base and word of mouth means a lot.

Early days yet, (for me) but it’s slowly getting there.

 

[DarkCrystl]

I don't worry too much if someone is willing to do a job for peanuts and mess it up. I price for a job and make sure it's done properly. I will explain to customer what why and how and if they want to get it done cheaper good luck to them- I won't loose any sleep.
Im happy doing what I do and my customers like me and hopefully value the skills and knowledge I have.
I've learnt to relax and enjoy myself and I think that reflects and people can see this.Chin up

 

[Bernie2]

Yes!

Quality counts always has. I once worked for a company, that was one of only two national Plumbing companies who at that time where government approved.

Basically they did not really have to look for most of their work it came to them.

But there rep was built on quality. Well I suppose it was until I went to work for them!!

In todays market however, its usually price. If you ask yourself why another company get's the work and you don't its usually price.

The public I suppose perceive a Plumber or gas fitter as being a Plumber or gas fitter who should install stuff to the same standard whoever they are.

Lets be honest if your GaSafe you should.

So if the public think we are all the same their only deciding factor between contractors is probably price.

After all most of the general public have no idea who you are or what your work is like and probably may not know a good job from a bad one.

The car makers would love it, if people did not know the difference between a cheap line from Tata and a Roller. They could probably sell them Tata's for the same price as Roller's. Joke!

But the public usually do know the difference between cars. Problem is they probably don't know the difference between Plumbing companies or the standard of work they are offering.

As I have said before, if the public are educated enough to know what is involved in doing a good job, they can then perhaps decide better between the quality of work on offer from contractor's.

But while they know little, they will probably shop on price. Would not you do the same?

In other words you have to be able to recognise quality to know your getting it.

Incidentally while Corgi was in charge, I must have perhaps worked in thousands of peoples houses, admittedly mostly tenanted. But was only ever asked for CORGI registration proof a maximum of perhaps six to eight times over those years.

So it must be easy for cowboys to get away with anything if they want too and as Squirrel says you probably will not stop it. But it may help if people know what they are supposed to be getting and can tell for themselves a quality job from perhaps a lesser one.


Good mail Squirrel!

 

[justlead1]

Hi. The fact is home owners want the best deal possible and although difficult to deal with competition, three man days to run a pipe lag it and fit a rad seems about two thirds more time than i would expect. It may well be that the isolation of self employed plumbers, lacks the facility to measure ones ability and pace against others in the trade. EG. A quilified plumber rocks up on a job and quoted the person £19 per hour to first fix the first floor (wood joists) 6 rads a bathroom and soil stack, copper work for H&C and heating. Three plumbers and mate arrive and days latter finish. The bill was £2678 the person paid. They may well have gone back to second fix, i don't know. For £600 i would have thought it a good days work or have thing change that much.

 

[newbie1]

people are having cheap work done because they are only looking at initial cost because the cowboy wont come back
went the other day for leaking rad and toilet
leaky rad no prob isolate drain past refill
toilet someone had fitted new toilet but had cut the threaded connection to the filler at a 45deg angle and then thrown a silicon grenade at it
had to remove cistern strip and refit
then went back next day to fit a rad but they want shower replaced and i quoted 200.00 to replace incl replace tile inset valve etc but the phone has gone silent so guess they will get some cheapsdkate in for 100.00

 

[Bernie2]

The thing is if people know a good job they usually pay for a good job. So if the guy or gal can't tell the difference between a good and a bad job as Justlead says he is probably going to choose on price.

He might think the higher charging person is a "rip off!" merchant not a quality producer. After all, its what about the customer may be thinking, that decides who gets the job, not the Plumber doing the work.

 

[moony]

silly isnt it, i recently changed a pump grundfos to grundfos for 120, took me half hour and the customer give me an extra twenty quid...

someone else had phoned earlier that week and had baulked at my price for a pump change...

i always fit grundfos, but im always getting underpriced by other plumbers fitting lesser makes...

makes me wonder if im paying for the name as some customers suggest - but ive never had a problem with them and most places ive been to theyve lasted many years...

 

[justlead1]

Certain works will always command good money. Pump changes etc will fall in to this category, as having hot water and heating working is a high priority and call out rates apply. The majority of householders have not a clue what the price for any works should be, having problems for the first time etc. but when the cupboard is bare, like you and i, there more cautious. In the early seventies i subscribed to barclay card and access. Allowing clients to purchase our service, with out embarrassment of asking for credit. Perhaps this is a tool to put in the bag?

 

[secret squirrel]

Hi. The fact is home owners want the best deal possible and although difficult to deal with competition, three man days to run a pipe lag it and fit a rad seems about two thirds more time than i would expect. It may well be that the isolation of self employed plumbers, lacks the facility to measure ones ability and pace against others in the trade. EG. A quilified plumber rocks up on a job and quoted the person £19 per hour to first fix the first floor (wood joists) 6 rads a bathroom and soil stack, copper work for H&C and heating. Three plumbers and mate arrive and days latter finish. The bill was £2678 the person paid. They may well have gone back to second fix, i don't know. For £600 i would have thought it a good days work or have thing change that much.

Almost got defensive with this reply 3 days to run pipe lag etc..

But "maybe" this is a problem with "us", "industry", "customer" etc. On the face of it the customer thinks "all I had was the hot and cold moved from one end of the house to the other and the rad moved from that wall to this one" and on the face of it, thats what I did/we would've done.

However, the reality is different, both flow and return had to be moved a considerable distance, drain down etc, attempting to fit it to blown plaster, getting rid of air lock, lifting numerous floor boards etc, re-routing a few pipes in the airing cupboard, connecting the 22mm new kitchen feed into the system (was not easy). Having to clear out the airing cupboard and move furniture about constantly the room that is a bedroom (now the kitchen) is also a storage room. Having to re-do the rad because the cheap shed parts were useless (including the rad).

This is where, I'm now open to critism and perhaps a "chancer" my assistant who did some of the donkey work didn't get paid so in actual effect the customer got charged 1.5 days + parts. £600 in my dreams....

HOWEVER, the point is the vast majority of all of OUR work isn't seen, its hidden in cupboards and under floor boards, maybe, we should explain what we need to do more etc.

So, whilst I marvel at my granite worktops and the state of the art square sink and spray tap costing £3500 I resent paying £*** to the plumber to make it happen.

But then, we run the risk of the customer doing it himself?

Who Knows?

(justlead, not intended to have a dig at you, but as an illustration of "our" (on occasion) to jump the gun, I didn't put how much customer was charged for this purpose or detail the work required, hoping someone would come back to it)

 

[justlead1]

Hi, SS, I did not want to offend you, just make a point. I can see from your explanation the work was more involved than your first post. I must admit plumbing to me has been a cash cow. I just price every job and try and finish as quick as possible to move on to the next one. This is the only way i have been able to motivate myself, and keep my sanity (although that's debatable) Good Luck

 

[Bernie2]

Problem is guys, looked at from a punters point of view, paying BG or others like them a one off sum of say £140 per year, to guarantee parts and labour on your whole system, is obviously going to be the way to go.

I suppose we can look forward to many similar schemes to cover all other Plumbing work.

But what is it going to do to the self employed and the workers in these big companies?

It seems the more prices drop the more work they expect for the same money. I often wonder what a company is really thinking about if their workforce is working flat out doing 10 services a day by offering more money to do more?

A person can only do so much regardless of how much you pay them. The correlation of offering them more money suggests they are not working as hard as they could.

The poor old worker feels pressured to do more or risk being thought a slow worker and so get the sack.
But if they where already working flat out, how do they do the extra work required?

Does the temptation to cut corners to reach targets seem more or less likely?

 

[justlead1]

I think you are right, people will sign up, but LARGE companies have small print, which inflates the original sum and have a legal dept to defend this policy.