Ventilation help!

[Dave'o]

Can anyone help please..

I'm trying to work out if this cooker has the required ventilation...kitchen has openable doors and windows witch is fine but there has been a conservatory build around the kitchen i.e around the door and windows.

I have a few documents about this but I can't seem the make sense of it all..please could someone explain this in simple terms..

"In the event that a conservatory is added to a building the general ventilation rate for the conservatory and where necessary the kitchen behind, may achieved by the use of background ventilators in the following manner:

1. There is from the conservatory to outside provision for both:
a). Purge ventilation with a total area based on a minimum of 1/20th the total floor area of the kitchen and conservatory and
b). Background ventilation of at least 8000mm2 (80cm2) and

2. There are openings which (must be closable) between the kitchen and conservatory for:
a). Purge ventilation equivalent to 1(a) above, and
b). Background ventilator of equivalent to 1(a) above and be located at least 1.7m above the floor.

The above method of providing ventilation to the kitchen through the conservatory will satisfy the requirement of BS 5440 (Clause 6.4) where there is no openable window (purge ventilation) direct to outside air.

 

[diamondgas]

You know what it is Dave'o I find this a pain too. Came across a few and advised tha the builder put a purpose made vent to the kitchen....lol .... It'll be interesting to see what the teachers say when they come online!!!

 

[metaldust9]

i rung gas safe over this and as long as the room with the hob in, is over 10m2 its fine its not needed also my british gas mate said its has to have an openable window and conseratory doors on the inside as otherwise virually every house would fail as, ncs, best thing to do is ring gas safe like i did, also going of what youve said i recone ye going to town on the regs instead of just checking

 

[kirkgas]

i will need to have a wee think/look at some stuff before answering this one, it has cropped up before but i cant remember how it was resolved, im sure there is a TB on mechanical ventilation, the statement is usually over 10m3 no purpose provided vent required, but openable window or equivalent required, there is no size for "or equivalent" which causes the proplem, i remember arguing with a council CoW years ago when confronted by this in an internal kitchen refurb contract we were doing, i fitted 19mm plastic overflow pipe from under the kitchen units behind the cooker, through the wall, under the bath then to outside and fitted a byelaw 30 kit on the other end, even altered the slots so they were classed as vent slots, haha he went tonto saying thats not what the reg says, i told him to give me a volume or area of what he wanted for the "or equivalent" he went away and came back saying CORGI dont think you are acting in the spirit of what was meant but they cant fault what you have done as it is open to interpretation, will check to see if i can find the TB, unless someone else picks it up first,

 

[metaldust9]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

 

[diamondgas]

Hey check out Gas Safe TB005! If you can make head or tale of it you're a better man than me!!! Goes on about all the alternatives!! Regards the 10sq mtr thing... I believe the openable door or window has to be to outside yeh?

 

[CES]

Hey check out Gas Safe TB005! If you can make head or tale of it you're a better man than me!!! Goes on about all the alternatives!! Regards the 10sq mtr thing... I believe the openable door or window has to be to outside yeh?

lol i was just looking at that.

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

openable door or window needs to open to outside, so when you build a conservatory the back door becomes an internal door, therefore requiring additional ventilation to be fitted

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

a room with lack of vent and no signs of spillage etc is only AR and therefore he had no right/requirement to disconnect it, merely advise you if you used it and died he wouldnt be to blame

 

[kirkgas]

Hey check out Gas Safe TB005! If you can make head or tale of it you're a better man than me!!! Goes on about all the alternatives!! Regards the 10sq mtr thing... I believe the openable door or window has to be to outside yeh?

thats the one, i didnt have time to look for it earlier

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

all will require ventilation some may require mechanical extraction and some will ask for interlock mi,s are mad sometimes

 

[metaldust9]

i give up, i just told you all i rang gas safe technical and they told me what i have told you that was last yr and av been doing it that way ever since my mate clarifide it last sun as we was chatting about it and works for bg so you can read all the books you want am going off gas safe and am not replying on here no more as nobody listens

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

why what did gassafe say?

 

[GrahamM]

i give up, i just told you all i rang gas safe technical and they told me what i have told you that was last yr and av been doing it that way ever since my mate clarifide it last sun as we was chatting about it and works for bg so you can read all the books you want am going off gas safe and am not replying on here no more as nobody listens

Don't know what you were told, but unless there has been a recent change to regs or updated TB, if there is no direct vent/opening door or window to outside there must be an extract fan to outside providing a certain amount of flow.
Without extraction and no opening window etc the install will be 'AR'.
If there is extraction to outside at worst it will be 'NCS'.

This is the basics as far as I am aware.

You mention your mate wanting to cap your supply or something??? At the very worst it is only going to be 'AR' due to this ventilation issue. All that would/could be done is turn off and advise not to use the cooker/hob.

 

[diamondgas]

i give up, i just told you all i rang gas safe technical and they told me what i have told you that was last yr and av been doing it that way ever since my mate clarifide it last sun as we was chatting about it and works for bg so you can read all the books you want am going off gas safe and am not replying on here no more as nobody listens

Metaldust9, don't get your knickers in a twist! Re-read your posts and you may see why we're not acknowledging your posts. They are not clear, and are not solid facts, to be honest! AND once you mention receiving incorrect advice from a friend and post it here it discredits what you've written! Please don't take that personal but learn from it. I'm sure your imput here will be of benefit, just so happens it isn't on this occasion!
I'm not gonna get into too heated a discussion about your posts as it will distract from the important information posted here. Ventilation for cookers and hobs is an important one to know and get right for us all and it isn't the easiest to get your head around!

Check out GrahamM's post .... That makes clear good sound sense... Cheers GrahamM

 

[BLOD]

just looked at my notes from a job we had last year with an internal kitchen with no doors or windows to outside
kitchen needed mechanical extractor fan venting to outside,

Had to extract at,
30 l/s if the extractor is adjacent to the hob
60 l/s if it's elsewhere in the room

 

[metaldust9]

gasman i was fitting a new gas carcas in a house and came across the conservatory problem on the back with no vent the bloke i was with was gas safe anyway after a discution we decided to ring gas safe there technical said it didnt need a vent if the room was over 10 square meters and has an openable window and conservertory doors on the kitchen i was doing my acs at the time so new wat the regs was, as id just done them and thought you defo had to have a vent but i double checked with the bloke at gas safe and he said no not needed plus like i said above my mate works for british gas and said the same thing cos they come accross it all the time due to people building conservertorys and having gas hobs they used to i,d them but not anymore cos the regs have changed

diamond gas my posts are perfectly clear if you read what i have put its the same as ave put here cos ive been thro this loads of times

 

[diamondgas]

Hi metaldust,
you have the benefit of having attended the property you are talking about. We do not. The initial post talks about a kitchen surrounded by a conservatory. The kitchen door and window opens into the conservatory, in effect the kitchen does not have a direct contact to outside but in stead connects with the conservatory. Is that similar to the one you're talking about, same configuration? The reason i ask is because I personally am not sure of where the hob you talk about is positioned in connection with kitchen/conservatory! My interpretation of what you're post is saying is that it's okay for the kitchen window to open into a conservatory as long as the conservatory has doors that connect to the outside! Excuse me if I am having a blond moment ....

 

[metaldust9]

no ,the outside wall of the kitchen what the conservertory is attached to has to have an openable window and double conservetory doors the conservertory will have doors and windows as standard usually,but if the conservatory didnt have windows i think id put a vent in just to cover myself

anyway i,ll do it how ive always done it and how ive been tought regardless of anyone ,i,ll do it by the regs,mi,s or gas gafe,and my own way cos fed up coming on here giving advise because i been there and done the job and gone out of my way to check am right so dont get stung later on by someone going back to the job

 

[diamondgas]

Cheers metaldust9 that clears up what I thought

Now if I may sum up my interpretation of the regs....
When a kitchen greater than 10cu mtr does not have an openable door or window direct to outside a purpose provided extractor is required. If intermittent extract fitted directly above the cooker/hob it should provide 30Ltr/s and 60 ltr/s elsewhere in the room. If it is a permanent extraction device it needs to provide 13 ltr/s.

This is a building regulation by the way so the installation will be NCS if no extract provided. Only time you'd ID would be if it's leaking gas or producing CO!

Did I miss anything or get anything incorrect?

----------------

I missed out the purge ventialtion stuff didn't I!

Conservatory installations​

In the event that a conservatory is added to a building and in the absence ofintermittent extraction as described above, the general ventilation rate for theconservatory and where necessary the kitchen behind, can also be achieved by theuse of background ventilators in the following manner:a) Purge ventilation via openable doors windows or similar to outside air with atotal opening area equivalent to 1/20​

​

​

​

th the total combined floor area of thekitchen and conservatory; and​

b) Background ventilation (trickle vents) of at least 8000mm​

​

​

​

2 which are closableand located at least 1.7m above the floor.The above method of providing ventilation to the kitchen through the conservatorywill satisfy the requirement of BS 5440-2(1) (Clause 6.4) where there is no openable​

window (purge ventilation) direct to the outside air.

 

[Dave'o]

Just rung Gas Safe...was told...

(existing installation) If the kitchen volume is grater than 10m3 there is NO need for additional ventilation but will be classed as NCS.

If the kitchen volume is less than 10m3 it is classed as AR...

couple way to rectify this...

1). there needs to be an extractor fan to outside air (can't remember the exact figure...30lts/min i think) .

2). the area of the opening i.e doors/windows from conservatory to outside has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of the kitchen AND conservatory...also an 80cm2 vent from conservatory to outside.

AND...area of closable opening from kitchen to conservatory has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of kitchen and conservatory....also a closable 80cm2 vent which has to be 1.7m above floor level from kitchen to conservatory.

well...i think thats it..please let me know if I've made any mistakes..(sorry if i'm just repeating what others are saying) just trying to get it clear in my head

 

[metaldust9]

dave.o at last someone with some sence (besides gasman who no,s what he doin) all that was needed was to ring gas safe like i did and you have, problem solved and as you have and been told the same as me, end of story anyone doing this job no,s ventalation is important and you need vents below 10m3

 

[CES]

Well personally I would have read the technical bulletins and used my own engineering judgement as everyone actually doing the job should know. But Im too tight to spend money phoning gas safe. :smug:

 

[diamondgas]

CES... engeneering judgment or engemeering experience? You cannot buy that gut feeling I'd say!

Regards tech stuff and regs..... hmmmmmmm Maybe one for a new post... passive stack stuff and debris plates!!!! That'll be one for the boys!! LOL

 

[CES]

Lol Diamond, I was forever told that it was always down to "engineering judgement" when there was a problem and I was unsure (I was subbying to BG).
The main thing that I was trying to say was when it was the Dogs you couldn't get a straight forward answer off the so called techies so I never bothered phoning. Now its Gas Safe should it be any different? Maybe it is. But one thing I would say, and I dont mean any offense to anyone, but In my opinion calling Gas Safe is always the last port of call. i dont claim to know it all but I do know where to look to try and find it.

 

[GrahamM]

Just rung Gas Safe...was told...

(existing installation) If the kitchen volume is grater than 10m3 there is NO need for additional ventilation but will be classed as NCS.

If the kitchen volume is less than 10m3 it is classed as AR...

couple way to rectify this...

1). there needs to be an extractor fan to outside air (can't remember the exact figure...30lts/min i think) .

2). the area of the opening i.e doors/windows from conservatory to outside has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of the kitchen AND conservatory...also an 80cm2 vent from conservatory to outside.

AND...area of closable opening from kitchen to conservatory has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of kitchen and conservatory....also a closable 80cm2 vent which has to be 1.7m above floor level from kitchen to conservatory.

well...i think thats it..please let me know if I've made any mistakes..(sorry if i'm just repeating what others are saying) just trying to get it clear in my head

Just re-read the TB. I was more or less spot on with the exception of being NCS if room is at least 10m³ and no openings or extraction to outside.:dozey:
Cheers Dave'o!

 

[diamondgas]

Lol Diamond, I was forever told that it was always down to "engineering judgement" when there was a problem and I was unsure (I was subbying to BG).
The main thing that I was trying to say was when it was the Dogs you couldn't get a straight forward answer off the so called techies so I never bothered phoning. Now its Gas Safe should it be any different? Maybe it is. But one thing I would say, and I dont mean any offense to anyone, but In my opinion calling Gas Safe is always the last port of call. i dont claim to know it all but I do know where to look to try and find it.

I agree regards GasSafe but it may be the only port of call for many starting out yeh? Apart from here, of course

I spent 25 years with BG, CES, so know where you're coming from! lol ... I've learnt that it's vital to have places such as this to share thoughts and discuss the "grey" or less distinct areas of our remit as professional advisers on safe gas installations!

 

[CES]

I like chewing the fat with the guys about stuff we've never come across, learning new things and trying not to get upset with folk, I'm too old for that!
Ive also had a wee chuckle to myself when i think about Unguided1's harem of "Loveslaves", Gasman's almost unhealthy axe fixations with Icos/Isars and tales of the bad/good old days, most of which was different to my apprenticeship.Its all about the banter

 

[diamondgas]

Totally agree CES ... "said sittn' back with a glass of wine in the hand!" Some ppl are SOOOOOOOOO serious!!! LOL

 

[metaldust9]

i rung gas safe to cover myself just incase no other reason cos there would be a record of the call somewere,its not about being to serious it its about not loosing your badge thought a mistake aving paid out a fortune and someone not poping it thro your mistake,better safe than sorry in my book

 

[diamondgas]

i rung gas safe to cover myself just incase no other reason cos there would be a record of the call somewere,its not about being to serious it its about not loosing your badge thought a mistake aving paid out a fortune and someone not poping it thro your mistake,better safe than sorry in my book

metal....9 ... take a long breth in ............ and breath out ....................... slowly .............. relax my friend!


I use to chase fire engines! No ****!! It isn't that serious unless you kill someone! You're doing it right my friend, if you question!!

 

[kirkgas]

i rung gas safe to cover myself just incase no other reason cos there would be a record of the call somewere,its not about being to serious it its about not loosing your badge thought a mistake aving paid out a fortune and someone not poping it thro your mistake,better safe than sorry in my book

metal, take a chill pill man, it isnt about you throwing the dummy out of the pram cause you know what you are doing and nobody listens to you, having read the very easy post quoting the building regs etc, it seems that you are doing what you know, what you have been taught and more importantly what your mate at BG says, HOWEVER do you agree that the statement would seem to be that if there isnt an openable window or equivalant then your work should be classed as NCS, now where ever i have worked, trained and been taught it has never been my way to knowingly leave something as NCS, but please, and this isnt a dig at you, read the building reg quote and relate it to the ACTUAL job you are talking about and say whether you agree that what you are doing is NCS or different to the post, and whatever we all discuss on here helps enlighten us to the slight bits we are all getting wrong, and dont say you arent going to answer on here again cause we dont listen, UNLESS you mean it, cause it isnt the first time you have said it

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

do me a favour and re-check with GSR on this point and confirm you mean a room with a door and window that now doesnt open to outside, TBH doors can go anywhere, but when someone says the room has an openable window i think it is fair to say we mean openable to outside, all the paperwork i have, TB's, training notes, updated BS docs show an openable window or equivalent is required, nothing shows that the regs have changed now to discount this, so if i am wrong i need to redo what i am doing (more than happy to change if i need updated as most of us are)

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas like ive said above i rung gas safe about it and my bg mate used to say cos he was the last in my house he was going to have to disconnect my hob cos no vent and he be liable if i poped it, untill regs changed due to the amount of people with conservatories fitted already with gas hobs

gas safe said any room above 10 sq meters with openable window or door ,vent not needed weather its changed again i dont think so cos was talking to my bg mate about it on sunday

can you quote exactly what reg has now changed reducing an ID situation ( as your BG mate MUST disconnect) to a now situation which requires nothing to be done

 

[kirkgas]

Just rung Gas Safe...was told...

(existing installation) If the kitchen volume is grater than 10m3 there is NO need for additional ventilation but will be classed as NCS.

If the kitchen volume is less than 10m3 it is classed as AR...

couple way to rectify this...

1). there needs to be an extractor fan to outside air (can't remember the exact figure...30lts/min i think) .

2). the area of the opening i.e doors/windows from conservatory to outside has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of the kitchen AND conservatory...also an 80cm2 vent from conservatory to outside.

AND...area of closable opening from kitchen to conservatory has to be 1/20th of the combined floor area of kitchen and conservatory....also a closable 80cm2 vent which has to be 1.7m above floor level from kitchen to conservatory.

well...i think thats it..please let me know if I've made any mistakes..(sorry if i'm just repeating what others are saying) just trying to get it clear in my head

so what is the exact rule if we go to a house tomorrow, over 10m3 with a conservatory built on therefore no window or door to outside and we want to fit a hob, WHAT IS EXACTLY REQUIRED, RE VENTILATION PROVISION? cause i feel this post is running away with itself and some dont seem 100% clear but are happy to batter on regardless