The consequences of bad practices.

[Deleted member 96286]

I got called out to a leaking copper central heating return pipe. The customer thought the leak was coming from the soldered joint, but I quickly realised that the copper was pin holed most likely due to acidic flux being left on the pipe.
It takes seconds to wipe off excess flux. Those that don't then the consequences of this are the holes pictured in the pipe below.

 

[Pickwickpick]

Its amazing how often I see the signs of this, as you say its really not hard or time consuming to do!

Was also particularly unimpressed at training centre last month to find out that the tutor doing the pipework classes for those with no plumbing background was teaching them to a) brush flux onto the joint straight after soldering it (not good to suddenly cool it if nothing else!) b) hadn't taught them to wipe it off afterwards.

 

[Rob876]

I have recently completed a level 2 diploma in one of those centres and yes they taught the same bad technique (I tend to pay close attention to seasoned plumbers that do it the right way) one of the things I have noticed is there are right ways to do things and wrong, and it's up to us to work out which is which.

 

[townfanjon]

Yes , winds me up that , 2 mins to clean it up

 

[Old Account]

There is absolutely no pride in their plumbing world therefore giving a damn to clean the flux off afterwards. As @Harvest Fields used to say you can bring a horse to the pond but you can’t make it drink

 

[Rob876]

There is absolutely no pride in their plumbing world therefore giving a damn to clean the flux off afterwards. As @Harvest Fields used to say you can bring a horse to the pond but you can’t make it drink

and that comes down to the individual - having knowledge and pride in one's work are quite different things, I intend to have both.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

That's shocking mate. Cool any joint too quickly and it's in danger of cracking. Even the manufacturers recommend that joints be left for 2 minutes before handling. Brushing flux on a joint immediately after the joint has been made is the stuff of cowboys riding into the sunset.

 

[Old Account]

and that comes down to the individual - having knowledge and pride in one's work are quite different things, I intend to have both.

Don’t agree, if I am having pride in what I am doing you’ll surely have good workmanship. Haven’t meat anyone yet who was committing to the work and loved doing what he was doing and delivered bad jobs.

 

[Harvest Fields]

There is absolutely no pride in their plumbing world therefore giving a damn to clean the flux off afterwards. As @Harvest Fields used to say you can bring a horse to the pond but you can’t make it drink

I’ve said that?

 

[Deleted member 96286]

The other thing about this pipework, that it could also have corroded from the inside too. If there's that amount of excessive flux on the outside of the pipe, I can only imagine what the inside is like.

 

[rpm]

The other thing about this pipework, that it could also have corroded from the inside too. If there's that amount of excessive flux on the outside of the pipe, I can only imagine what the inside is like.

Wouldn`t it get flushed away.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Wouldn`t it get flushed away.

No it stays active in the system, but it will eventually degrade over time. It's best to flush it out of new pipework before use.

 

[Best]

These acidic fluxes are terrible imo.
Even the grease based mild traditional flux I use I clean it off the pipe.

 

[skoronesa]

Did you take pics of the fitting on the inside after you took it off? I have seen one instance of a pinhole forming from erosion.

 

[Sharp Point]

Cool any joint too quickly and it's in danger of cracking

That’s an absolute load of old tripe. I have soldered 100’s of thousands of fittings over my career and damp/ wet rag cooled soldered immediately after soldering.... the prelude to wiping the joints of flux. The key is to not just fly in with to much pressure!! I lightly dab the damp/ wet cloth on to pipe, until it solidifies fully and then hand wrap cloth to cool further and clean.
I have spent many years contracting and this is absolutely necessary to work at speed. I can hand on heart say, I’ve probably only had 20/30 soldered joint leaks over my career... and that’s probably due to rushing and not fluxing enough.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

That’s an absolute load of old tripe. I have soldered 100’s of thousands of fittings over my career and damp/ wet rag cooled soldered immediately after soldering./QUOTE]
Not according to the manufacturers of soldered fittings, i.e Yorkshire etc.
If people read and followed the manufacturers instructions from everything from Speed fit to Yorkies, then there would be fewer failures.
I've been a plumber since 1980 and can count the number of leaks on one hand from soldering.

 

[Sharp Point]

I suppose manufacturers have to put that as a guide for the lesser experienced, but us pro’s know the limitations of our methods.
And well done... 5 or less failures over 39 years, good on you! My comment wasn’t suppose to be a ***** measuring statement, just to make it clear they’re guidelines are sometimes not quite true.

Chars

 

[skoronesa]

I think you're both right. If you wipe the joint when it is already too cool you can end up with a bad joint. I make sure that when I wip my joints there is still enough heat that the solder is fluid and isn't hardening as I am wiping. Sometimes I wipe with the flux brush, sometimes a rag. I always clean off the flux after while the pipe is still warm with a wet rag.

You guys might not need it because you have those fittings with the solder rings built in, but recently I tried tinning flux for the first time and it is amazing. We use soldered on shut off valves below fixtures and they have a thin chrome tube, it's very easy to burn the flux in the joint on those. With the tinning flux that problem is gone.

 

[Sharp Point]

You guys might not need it because you have those fittings with the solder rings built in.

Sacre bleu..... wash your mouth out !!!!!

 

[Welder]

No it stays active in the system, but it will eventually degrade over time. It's best to flush it out of new pipework before use.

I had to repipe the cold water services of a whole school cos even mains pressure hadn't flushed it out. It started literally close to the supply and then over a period of weeks got peppered with INTERNAL leaks as dozens of smaller blobs of flux has stuck to the internal walls and been pushed down the pipe. That was the point I switched perm to heat activated flux cos I realised that, with the best will in the world, one could never clean it all out - especial in remedial works.

 

[Welder]

That’s an absolute load of old tripe. I have soldered 100’s of thousands of fittings over my career and damp/ wet rag cooled soldered immediately after soldering.. the prelude to wiping the joints of flux. The key is to not just fly in with to much pressure!! I lightly dab the damp/ wet cloth on to pipe, until it solidifies fully and then hand wrap cloth to cool further and clean.
I have spent many years contracting and this is absolutely necessary to work at speed. I can hand on heart say, I’ve probably only had 20/30 soldered joint leaks over my career... and that’s probably due to rushing and not fluxing enough.

To be fair, you've just written it's not a load of tripe!

He specifically said "too quickly" and you agree by doing it slowly. You are in VIOLENT agreement

 

[Sharp Point]

To be fair, you've just written it's not a load of tripe!

He specifically said "too quickly" and you agree by doing it slowly. You are in VIOLENT agreement

Lol, yep I see your point.

 

[Sharp Point]

My initial reply, was to the waiting two minutes.

 

[Pickwickpick]

I had to repipe the cold water services of a whole school cos even mains pressure hadn't flushed it out. It started literally close to the supply and then over a period of weeks got peppered with INTERNAL leaks as dozens of smaller blobs of flux has stuck to the internal walls and been pushed down the pipe. That was the point I switched perm to heat activated flux cos I realised that, with the best will in the world, one could never clean it all out - especial in remedial works.

Haven't come across heat activated flux before, sounds good, are they any downsides to it compared to using traditional flux?

 

[Welder]

The one I settled on is La-Co.

So far as I can tell, it's always flushed out, doesn't stick like the proverbial to a blanket on the inside of pipes and simply works! Like any change it takes a little getting used, to but once you've a bit of experience it's perfectly fine.

Being a tad anal, I always properly cleaned whatever I was soldering.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I use laco aswell and I wipe any old pipe joints with flux just to make them shine

 

[Deleted member 96286]

I must say that I'm trying to scale down the use of a flame on jobs to the point of almost eliminating it completely. This was the reason for my recent interest and subsequent purchase of press fitting kit. There will always be a time when solder will be required, but I'm a big fan of press fitting now and the copper push fit systems like Tectite.

 

[skoronesa]

This is a pic of the one fitting I have found that had a pinhole from erosion. It was on a recirc line that ran most of the time.

Also, I found some pipe from the old country!!

 

[Old Account]

I’ve said that?

Yes you said that to me mate in regards to the Vaillant 938

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yes you said that to me mate in regards to the Vaillant 938

Ohhh. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

 

[Old Account]

Ohhh. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

That’s the one thanks

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Ohhh. You can lead a plumber to water but you cannot make it think

 

[Rob Foster]

I think it is wise to distinguish between sloppy work and down right incompetant work. 1. Some fellas do not know what or how to do things properly.
2. Some know what to do but dont.
centralheatking