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RHI Update

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy' started by JonG1, Nov 4, 2015.

Discuss RHI Update in the Renewable Energy area at

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  1. JonG1

    JonG1 New Member

    Has anyone heard anything at all about what might be happening going forward, I heard that the small biomass commercial and domestic tariff is likely to degress a further 10% next quarter but no impact on any other categories/technologies but still no inkling of whether the RHI will continue past April.
  2. missplumb

    missplumb Plumber

    at the moment it is still up in the air, we wil find out in the next few weeks whether it will continue from March next year, general concensus seems to be that the government will say they have met their targets and will stop the rhi for new applications.
  3. Nostrum

    Nostrum Plumber GSR

    Do you have a link to where target vs deployment can be found?

    Specifically for domestic technology?

    I was under the impression that biomass had over achieved whereas all other technologies were well short of the mark.
  4. Dan-HybridHeat

    Dan-HybridHeat GSR

    People took the :nono: with the biomass commercial RHI which had a massive impact on the tariff. I personally can't see any of it lasting now the Lib Dems are completely out of power.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2015
  5. voivod

    voivod Plumber GSR

    meaning the rich have theirs fitted so screw you lot ;)
  6. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    Possibly, however if this is so important to you, I'm sure you listened to Amber Rudd when she was up before the select committee.

    Overall they are well behind on their targets for 'Renewable Heat' yes Biomass on all tariffs is well overspent, so much so that Drax has been scaled back...

    However, (let's ignore that lack of electricity generation capability to deliver it as that's another can of worms...) the Gov't has an official target to deliver renewable heat; heatpumps are one of the few predictable and measurable sources of renewable energy, hence predictions of 6.8 MILLION heatpumps by 2030, that's 450,000 PER ANNUM. (Just google the phrase "6.8 MILLION heatpumps by 2030" )

    Oh, the generation issue:- we'd need an EXTRA 1.8GW of of electricity EACH YEAR for the next 15 years and that IS a major problem - hence the push of Nuclear and Fracking - sometimes you have to look at the big, very big, picture to see what's going on.

    Here's my crytsal ball (come back in 4 months and let me know how I did :) )

    So; the Govt is between a rock and a hard place. It's not going to announce any significant changes before Paris (30th Nov-13th Dec), and unlikely (politically) during Paris. It's also got its work cut out handling 35,000 responses to the change in Solar FiT.

    The RHI isn't going away, however it will have a top to bottom review of which technologies it wants to incentivise and how, - I would expect Solar Thermal for instance to get a bit of a boost, a boost for Air Source heat pumps, see some tariff banding in the domestic market,

    DECC considers itself spot on wrt biomass, it has now cut it such that only those people that MUST do something are doing something - we're as busy now as we were in April and May and I don't see it slowing down (March, June, Sept had 'false' peaks)
  7. voivod

    voivod Plumber GSR

    electricity would be better served by wind /hydro and pv than going down the nuclear route :(
    They say oh pv etc is costing us a fortune in you see how much thhe nuclear subsidy is??? ££££££££££££££££££££
  8. JonG1

    JonG1 New Member

    I cant help thinking that if the news was negative it would have been leaked by now as has happened so often previously.

    A shake up of the process would be merited though especially the MCS to allow us more latitude to design flexible and sensible systems that aren't so oversized.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    Why does BS EN 12831:2003 mean that you design systems that are oversized?

    To date I would say that ours have all come out right-sized.
  10. JonG1

    JonG1 New Member

    BSEN12831 doesn't give any latitude to solar gain, latent heat from cooking, occupancy latency etc. which generally means that it is around 30% higher than reality.

    The 100% sizing rule then compounds things further meaning that a heat pump is sized for a theoretical peak instead of a more average load. On a fixed speed, this results in a bigger compressor and more current draw, larger ancillaries, bigger pumps and generally more cost which makes the project harder to sell and could result in higher standing losses (depending on where the cylinder/buffer is located), higher manufacture, transportation costs and more carbon pre-install, which is counter to the point of the installation in the first place.

    Many European countries tend to focus more on energy requirement than power and heat pumps are sized to provide 80% with small dips into a hybrid support system when required. Instead we have to cascade 2 units where 1 would do and create additional cost, carbon etc. instead of a marginal increase in fossil consumption to achieve the same result.

    Loop/bore sizing at 0 degrees incoming also causes issues such as undersized coils in cylinders which cannot absorb the power over the summer, resulting in cycling and again increased infrastructure and installation cost and carbon.

    We have all seen the truly undersized installs internal and external, but the 100% rule is a hammer to crack a nut and gives the installer no credibility for coming up with a proper engineering solution tailored to the technology employed.

    We are already involved in rectifying issues with oversized biomass plant created by the 1314 hours on the non-domestic RHI, this is less of a risk with heat pumps but it still grates being told how to design a system by the Government, who simply don't seem to understand the application.
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    The oversized biomass issue is one of greed, not design. So I wont go there..

    The 100% rule is important, what is causing the problems though is not design, as there is NOTHING stopping you designing a bivalent or 70% system under MCS. You can do it, you don't have to design the renewable system to deliver 100%. The heating system has to, so there is nothing stopping you designing bi-valent systems. We do it all the time.

    A right sized system for the client could well be one that the renewable system delivers 70% of the load, simples, then you just meter it for payment. European systems also usually provide much larger buffer tanks - the have a heat pump tariff for instance where the heat pump loads up the buffer / accumulator vessel so that ca then be used to heat the property.

    The problem isn't MCS or BS EN 12831, it's the RHI scheme that is driving particular designs and your sales staff.

    Note that more GSHP's were installed per annum in the years before the RHI than since its introduction.

    I agree the MCS standard could be better formulated, unfortunately it has been designed to enable idiots to design and install a system, and ensure that they don;t get any undersized systems like the ones that caused all the problems and hit the national press.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. JonG1

    JonG1 New Member

    Granted but if the design heat loss via BSEN12831 is already 30% high the and 100% sizing rule is applied to the heat pump only to avoid complications with heat meters etc. this results in a heat pump that is bigger than it needs to be, because the starting point is too high and this is still the case if a bivalent is designed, because it has to be derived from the BSEN12831 too.

    The integration of control to the heat pump also limits options, in the old days the customer knew to light their WBS/gas fire/etc. (space heat only) to assist when it got really cold, we still have plenty like this and the customers are quite happy with the arrangement.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

  14. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    Solar PV may be screwed, some hope for RHI:

    Leaked letter: Rudd admits 25% green energy undershoot, misled Parliament - The Ecologist
    Facing legal action, strong support for solar and wind, Rudd refuses to reverse cuts - The Ecologist

    That is if she manages to survive the calls for her resignation.

    She is of course an Osborne austerity hawk, and almost certainly placed into DECC by him to do his bidding
    • Like Like x 3
  15. Nostrum

    Nostrum Plumber GSR

    I read this early with the same optimism. Let's hope it's addressed correctly come April.
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
  16. voivod

    voivod Plumber GSR

    read a report saying the government were going to spend on overseas renewables too offset our carbon tax here...

    Not gona say it but they are 4$$$ guess
  17. Nostrum

    Nostrum Plumber GSR

    Looks promising for RHI until 2020 :grouphug:
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

  19. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    • Like Like x 1
  20. Norcs

    Norcs Member

    The sooner grant funding for renewables is over the better.
    Terminated, finished etc.
    That's basically what a guy with a 50kw solar array was saying to me today.
    He seen the same system he had installed on e bay for half the price and challenged the guys who installed his system to match e bay.

    Well you can guess they just fobbed him off. None of them seemed willing to accept a cash bung to sign it off.
    The money comes out off poor peoples pockets. The very people who cannot afford the extortionate cost of renewables.

    Then those in the renewables industry can price on a level playing field with competitive opposition.
    We need getting rid of the middle men in the renewables industry who play no part with the end user. These parasites only got involved in order to feather their own nests.

    What we need is more shipping from china that can by-pass the burocracy and sell straight to the consumer and then see if it can stand on its own two feet.
    I reckon it can if the middle men sharks are removed.
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  21. Norcs

    Norcs Member

  22. Norcs

    Norcs Member

    After that all you need is a decent price for exporting to the grid.

    Why is it a power supplier charges a customer 17p per unit for electricity and only pays 3 pence per unit when buying power from him.

    That was the situation one of our customers found him self in after he erected a 250kw turbine.
    He uses about 100kw him self with his business.
    He employed a solicitor to haggle a better price but got no where. Waste of time and money.

    So then he told the power supplier he had changed his mind and wasn't gonna connect the turbine too the grid.
    Guess what? They came to him cap in hand with a better deal.:yes:

    Same guy is only after installing a 50kw solar array on his roofs.
    He has three saws which need about 100kw when running.
    The largest saw has a 10 foot diameter blade.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  23. ajn9000

    ajn9000 New Member

    This suggests that it would be acceptable, for example, to design a RHI-compliant system with an AW heat pump supplying < 100% of the design heat loss power in conjunction with an existing oil-fired Rayburn (providing convection/radiant space heating plus DHW) & would need to be metered to receive RHI payments.

    If that is that case, the 'adjusting' figure for sizing the AW heat pump would be the figure used to calculate the power of the Rayburn - as there don't seem to be any possibilities for adjustment with the other variables (room heat loss is as calculated, outside design temperatures are as per the table, etc).

    It looks like it might be possible to adjust the base temperature for the Degree Days figure - but that only affects the energy figure so cannot be used to influence sizing?
  24. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    1) We need to ensure that at the design temperature, 100% of the heating needs are met, bey either a single or a combination of heat sources (bi-valency)
    2) We can then design a bi-valent point, depending upon the sophistication of the controls, as the heat load can actually vary and is almost NEVER the load that is calculated. The control type can be:
    a) Alternative : If the outdoor temperature is below the threshold value, than we stop the heat pump and we start the gas/oil boiler or another energy source​
    b) Parrallel: If the outdoor temperature is below the threshold value, than we start the gas/oil boiler or another energy source, and Hp + gas/oil boiler works together​
    c) Boost / Parallel: If the outdoor temperature is below the threshold value, than we start to monitor the buffer tank / flow temp. If the buffer tank is over a specific period below the buffer set temperature, than we switch on the gas/oil boiler. This means we switch on the gas/oil boiler related to the demand.​

    The heat pump will be metered so that only the correct RHI is paid

    Suggest to discuss this further start a new thread :)
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  25. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    Re: RHI Update - Update for 2016

    Significant changes proposed to the Domestic RHI
    1. Cap on size of systems:
    Biomass and GSHP capped at 25,000kWh Gross
    ASHP capped at 20,000kwh Gross

    With minor tariff changes this means that the MAXIMUM payouts are:
    Biomass: £1285 / annum / £8995 over 7 Years
    GSHP: £3441 / annum / £24087 over 7 Years
    ASHP: £1333 / annum / £9331 over 7 Years

    2. Allowance for third party finance by assignment if RHI
    "we propose to introduce assignment of rights and expect that it would open up the scheme to those least able to pay. As the payments would go direct to the finance provider, the risk of default is reduced so this type of finance should be available even to those with poor credit."

    Minor tidying up:
    183 days occupancy for custom / self new build removed
    GDAR no longer required, still need loft and cavity wall insulation if recommended measures.

    Their goals:
    Spend Less:
    Cap the big systems
    Promote ASHP's
    Promote shared ground loop heat pump systems
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Nostrum

    Nostrum Plumber GSR

    You forgot the binning off of solar thermal :mad2:

    The caps are ridiculous. Biomass is dead in the water now as expected. I can see the logic in some of the changes though.
  27. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    Sorry forgot ta add that they've removed all support for Solar Thermal...

    The practicality of this means that no renewables systems >20kW will be installed - they'll all go bi-valent above that point, may be lower.

    ASHP's are effectively limited to 18kW and GSHP's to 20KW on single phase because of power requirements.
    Biomass >20kW .. need to do the math.

    They want to see a larger number of smaller systems rather that the bigger ones, effectively a disincentive for larger properties (that have been able to access the funds) from going renewables.

    I can see loads of commission based sales companies going like a rash over ASHP conversions, taking a certain amount of cash and then getting the RHI signed over as well.

    What DECC have failed to take into account is the additional fabric / infrastructure costs need to be done on a property to enable the deployment of heat pumps (insulation / increased radiator sizes x3, no 10mm pipe )

    With the way they are looking at restructuring the RHI could mean greater adoption by Housing Associations etc.
  28. JonG1

    JonG1 New Member

    Not had chance to look at this yet, when is planned implementation?
  29. Nostrum

    Nostrum Plumber GSR

    It looks pretty obvious that this is just going to become a numbers game now. Maximum deployment in an attempt to meet targets.

    Could go either way really, but I suspect you're right Worcester and the poorest will be targeted by the usual crowd, crash and grab crews. Free heat pumps flying around. Quantity over quality strikes again and then they'll wonder why the technology isn't performing as they'd hoped.
    • Like Like x 3
  30. markfxy

    markfxy Plumber

    are we talking about domestic solar thermal being binned?
  31. Worcester

    Worcester Plumber

    Both. Domestic and Non-Domestic RHI support for solar thermal to be scrapped (from spring 2017) so expect a rash of applications over the next 12 months.
  32. missplumb

    missplumb Plumber

    also the gov. will only support the first 60 non dom biomass installations of any size!!!!. been pricing a 1mw district heating system for a local vilage, gonna cost around £1m to install, rhi payback over 20 yrs - £400,000. numbers dont stack up anymore. the idea to put everyone on a base 2.1p/kwh to make small installations unappealing and incentivise district heating systems has only served to do exactly the opposite and cause plans to be shelved!!
  33. Gray0689

    Gray0689 Trusted Plumber GSR

    Biomass is dead over here now
  34. Dotty

    Dotty Guest

    As a dodo. I've only the three that I look after now.
  35. Gray0689

    Gray0689 Trusted Plumber GSR

    Was flat out fitting them did my last one ever 2 weeks ago lol
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