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  1. Reg Man

    Reg Man Trusted Plumber GSR

    I was thinking of becoming a brain surgeon. No qualifications. But all ok. because if it goes wrong, the patient will know different. So why is it in the gas industry, that people think they can do work with out the qualifications and registration?
  2. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    Cos to work on a boiler you need some basic tools & its your boiler.

    Would anyone work on their own brain with some screwdrivers out of a Christmas cracker and a hammer from the shed?
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  3. Reg Man

    Reg Man Trusted Plumber GSR

    Your own Boiler? Tell that to Stacey Rodgers, who's son. Domonic was killed by CO from the neighbours faulty boiler.
  4. johnf

    johnf Active Member

    And they were told by the bloke with the oil boiler that all boilers are fine to work on!
    • Like Like x 1
  5. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    Because they are not in the gas industry, but more to the point some people are still prepared to let them work in their homes without checking to see if they are, this despite numerous cases like that of Stacey Rodgers son.
  6. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Always makes me laugh that they have a gas safety week it shouldn't just be pushed for a week which is where Gas Safe fails they are a moneymaking organisation and do not invest heavily enough in preventative measures or education. They penalise those that are qualified or supposedly qualified yet to us it's seems like nothing is done to prevent the DIYer or illegals
    • Like Like x 4
  7. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    Is it not the job of the judiciary, prompted by government (us), to make the penalties such that it makes all those concerned think twice.

    As far as can see there is no effective deterrent to stop all those involved and that includes those working illegally as well as those who keep them operating by employing them.!!

    Blaming Gas Safe is a bit unfair when as we all know cases are put forward to HSE and the like and are simple not pursued, least not until someone is killed.

    Just like the rest of the regulations around this industry if they are not enforced then people simple ignore them which is why we are where we are with any Tom, Dick or Harry doing it with impunity.
  8. joni os

    joni os Plumber

    Penalties for homeowners who ignore or fail to check gas safe registration is the way to prevent unregistered work. Legally the framework is in place. Employers responsible for acts of employees. Fixed penalty, like use of mobile phone in car, for failure to record details.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    I totally agree with you Chris, my point with Blame sitting with Gas Safe is that they are the Visual body. I just don't think they invest enougj time effort and money into promoting safe gas work. Where peoples lives are at stake I don't think you can cut corners. Gas Safe should be working with all the big suppliers and all the big merchant so every time you walk into a plumbers merchant or a Screwfix or B&Q it should be Gas Safe literature here there and everywhere and posters stating the penalty if you get caught doing illegal work. I think the fact that I get asked if I am corgi registered about 10 times a week say that Gas Safe is not doing a good enough job promoting gas safety
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.

    The trouble is, that would also stop the money spinning.

    The competency tests and exams need toughening up too imo. There are way to many people pass with flying colours when they really are NOT competent at all.

    Again, money rules.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    That is exactly the point though isn't it if they really wanted to sort it out they could with a few easy measures but that won't because of the money involved
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    Exactamundo !!!
    All about cash !!

    Always is.

    The love of money is the route of all evil !
  13. zzzjim

    zzzjim Well-Known Member

    I would expect a backlash - underground market - of cheap GREY imports would pop up ...and hence even worse quality.
    Now what you are working on may not even be genuine ! .. Crime + Money
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Guest

    I see this more often on social media than any other suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't believe it would save a single life. Not one. In fact, it would probably cost lives.

    I have posted at length on this subject before, and won't bore regular posters with repeats, but I will add another point upon which I did not dwell in my previous refutations.

    The idea that preventing the sale of (say) a gas cooker hose to a have-a-go-hero will prevent a dodgy installation is based on the entirely false premise that once refused service in B&Q or at his local merchant, joe public will suddenly see the light, promptly give up his penny-pinching ways, and immediately engage the services of a GSR engineer. Sure, some will do that. But a significant minority, denied access to the correct product for the job, will decide that a few feet of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips will do just as well. The unintended consequence of our "safety initiative" is another house explosion.

    The current regime can very legitimately claim to be highly effective in terms of saving lives. The death rate from CO poisoning and/or explosion from natural gas has been steadily descending for years, and in 2011/12 we had our first ever year with zero deaths attributable to natural gas. It regrettably rose to 3 in the following year, but back in the 1990s we regularly used to bury 20 - 30 people a year. In that same year of 2011/12, solid fuel caused 9 deaths - despite the much smaller numbers of solid fuel appliances.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Stanios

    Stanios Plumber GSR

    Thing is for room sealed boiler to kill someone takes a bloody lot of things to go wrong, its an incredibly safe appliance.

    The fact that thousands of boilers get fitted by incompetent clueless and careless cowboys yet still so few accidents happen is a testament to that.
  16. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    I still think there is a lot of room for public education on the matter. Yes you will always get some clever dick that thinks they know better but I hate that Joe public have no idea who gas Safe are. With that in mind I also carry that mindset across to a lot of people doing illegal installs. There is literally no deterrent, none at all. Basically a lot of people are willing to take the economic risk of getting caught and fined but all they do is install a couple more boilers and that's it paid for. It is completely the wrong mentality and the sooner that they do away with the legislation rubbish of "competent" rather than "licensed to" The better I will feel about the situation
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    I can only speak for myself here Ray.

    I personally would not sell, for example, a Multifunctional gas valve, to some DIY obsessed penny pinching individual.

    This is because I think it would be irresponsible and morally wrong, to do so, knowing that the DIY obsessed penny pinching individual could easily cause damage to life or property.

    That is however, something I see various merchants do on a regular basis.

    Whatever your view on preventative ideas or suggestions, you must see where I am coming from ?

    If you do sell to such people in such, do you not feel that you are condoning their actions?
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    I do agree with last plumber relating to replacement parts however I don't think you can stop somebody buying a boiler or a fire or a hob otherwise all of a sudden we get accused of cronyism and price-fixing I have said in the past and Ray has said in the past with appliances use your gas safe card with a chip and pin as you do to pay a bill only somebody with a gas safe card can commission and turn on an appliance it's so simple but none of the manufacturers will do it because it cost too much money
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    I have said similar myself. If every boiler had a lock off that could only be reset with a gas safe card, You'd have cracked it.

    The thing is, money rules the game and it will always be the same.

    I also agree with the other point Riley made re-economic risk.
  20. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Guest

    Neither would I.

    But there is an enormous difference between not making the sale that you describe, and banning the sale of gas related items to non GSRs.

    Just as an example, well over half, and probably as many as 75% of sales of gas boilers are not to GSRs.

    Thats right - nearly three quarters.

    But these are not irresponsible or dangerous sales. They are just sales that you aren't considering in your ban plan.

    Manufacturer sells to merchant. Not GSR
    Manufacturer sells to distributor. Not GSR.
    Distributor sells to merchant. Not GSR
    Merchant sells to another mechant. Not GSR.
    Merchant sells to Council, Housing association, ministry of defence, university, hospital, housebuilder, indeed, any one of hundreds of perfectly legitimate organisations who have a right to buy and sell products freely in a free country, and without any intent of illegal fitting, and with zero risk to the public.

    Its simply disproportionate to ban these transactions - many, many millions of them across all gas products - in order to acheive what? To drive the have-a-go hero to purchase a 2nd hand appliance on ebay (how do you police that?) and do something still more dangerous?
    • Like Like x 2
  21. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    I agree with a lot of what you say.

    A lot of those sales/customers you mention, are and have legitimate reasons for buying. For example, If you sell a thousand boilers to a building firm for a housing estate, fine, someone has to do that and I have no problem with it.

    My Ban Plan Ray, is more concerned with the sales of boiler parts that goes on over the counter to people who are obviously going to go away and fix their own or other peoples boilers.

    I realise that this ban is nigh on impossible and will never be attempted.

    You must understand why there is frustration felt by legitimate GSR engineers who see Non registered people buying and installing parts.

    The suggestions made by myself and others are born of that frustration.
  22. bright spark

    bright spark Plumber GSR

    That's a fair point from Ray regarding boiler sales.
    I also agree with proof of GSR for sale of spares.
    I've been asked about 2 or 3 times for my card from suppliers when buying spares.

    Maybe another way to improve safety is for the customer to have to provide a cert to energy supplier yearly to prove that their appliance has been serviced by a qualified person.
    No cert and gas is turned off.
    This could work in domestic and commercial situations.
    So no proof of service and your gas is turned off.
    That'd get rid of non registered cowboys in the service end. Having to supply your GSR details (RGII in Ireland) would put the skids on the repair end alot
    • Like Like x 1
  23. SimonG

    SimonG Trusted Plumber

    This topic is always a good read.

    Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

    But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.
    • Like Like x 2
  24. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    It's never going to have a solution that suits everyone involved is it?

    The subject/Trade is massive
  25. SimonG

    SimonG Trusted Plumber

    It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    There will always be numpties !
    They will always DIY
  27. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Guest

    Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.
    • Like Like x 2
  28. johnf

    johnf Active Member

    The trouble is there is more of a DIY approach when LPG is concerned in the leisure industry. Camping and Gas BBQ's are all bits worked on by DIYers and it can sometimes prove fatal. Oil on the other hand, apart from the odd workshop heater most appliances are fixed with permanent flues.
    • Like Like x 2
  29. bright spark

    bright spark Plumber GSR

    The sensible head would think LPG don't touch it with a barge pole. But people will never let ye down in the stupidity department
  30. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
    We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

    How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Guest

    I don't have the official stats, but a quick google search suggests its now a similar order of magnitude to CO deaths attributable to natural gas, although it was a lot more in the 60s and 70s. I suspect that electrocution may be secondary to fire as a cause of death attributable to electrical faults.

    However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

    Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2017
  32. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Guest

    Ok. So I lied. Here's what I wrote last time.

    • Like Like x 1
  33. Plumbstar Tom

    Plumbstar Tom Well-Known Member

    Licenses for ladders then!!!!
    • Like Like x 2
  34. Last Plumber

    Last Plumber Plumber GSR

    Outright ban on ladders to anyone except Fire service ????
  35. johnf

    johnf Active Member

    I would be happy with that. Hate the things. I wouldn't have to get on roofs anymore except by if there is a scaffold
    • Like Like x 1