Permanent Pilot Light - Safety Issue

[Chris-Newcastle]

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice.
I recently had my home gas boiler serviced and this was carried out satisfactorily as far as I know.
(I was at work but my wife was present).
The boiler is in the kitchen and my wife asked the men to check for any gas leaks in the kitchen as she thought she may have smelt gas in the past near the hob.
The gas fitters said they had detected a major leak and then identified it as coming from the fire in the living room.
So, they disconnected the fire and put a warning sticker on it.
However what they did not realise is that the fire is old and has a permanent pilot light (not controlled by a thermocouple) and so if the gas is turned off at the mains then when it is turned on again the fire’s pilot light must be either turned off or re-lit.
I have asked the firm to reconnect the fire as it is not actually faulty. It is just old (Thorn Meridian-N gas fire).
I also asked them to do this free of charge because in my opinion they should have realised that the supposed leak was just the fire’s pilot light (which is very easily accessible) and not actually a fault.
They have declined to come back saying the fire is dangerous. I understand the point they are making but we have had this fire for many years without a problem.
I probably will replace it soon. I can operate it with the pilot light turned off if that is necessary for safety.
But, I still think that as Gas Safe registered fitters they should have realised that the fire was not faulty and so just have re-lit the pilot light.
Could you give me your opinion on this case ?
Thanks very much for your time.

 

[Blake]

So are the gas engineers saying that the pilot blew out and this resulted in gas escaping into the room which is why you could smell gas? Or did they find another gas escape on the fire?

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Hi Darryl - No the fire's pilot went out when they turned the gas off at the mains to do a leak test.
We've never smelt gas in the living room. It was just that my wife thought she had smelt gas in the kitchen before, but I never have.
I wish she hadn't asked them to do the leak test !
The gas escape that they thought they had found was actually the fire's pilot light - it's got no thermocouple to turn off the gas so the valve stays open unless you manually close it.
I know this could be considered dangerous but it is how the fire was designed.

 

[Blake]

The fire would be classed as NTCS (not to current standards), as long as it passes all of the safety checks, then it is fine to use. The fire is old, and as an engineer I would ensure the customer was aware of the lack of safety devices and recommend a new one.

If the fire is not used often and has an inline gas tap (which I would hope it should have) to isolate the gas supply to the fire, I would isolate it and only open when wanting to use it as you are otherwise wasting gas with the permanent pilot, and in the event of the pilot blowing out it would let gas escape into the room.

Get them back to reconnect the fire, it is not unsafe, it is just NTCS due to lack of safety device. Just ensure it has a gas tap before the burner to isolate the gas supply and enable testing of the gas pipework for leaks.

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Thanks for the advice. There isn't an easily operable inline gas tap to the fire as a whole - you have to use a screwdriver to isolate the gas supply to the fire.
But the pilot does have its own tap which is easily accessible from the front of the fire.
We do use the fire only occasionally so if I turn the pilot tap off (and in future just light the fire with a match) then there would be no 'leak'.
Do you think this would be sufficient - i.e. leave the gas supply to the fire turned on but have the pilot burner valve turned permanently off ?

 

[Blake]

As long as there is an isolation to the burner I don't see this as a problem. The design obviously allows for the isolation of gas to the burner, but due to its age it does not incorporate a flame safety device.

The burner can be isolated and the gas tested, which is what they should of done.

Saying all of that, I would still consider updating the fire as I personally would not use a fire without a FSD, but that does not mean you are not allowed to.

Is this your fire?

http://www.partsarena.co.uk/baxi/System/DATA/Dx/DS1/user/4070/U02-4070/U02-4070.htm

 

[leelister6]

So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Hi Darryl,
Yes - that is my fire - it's in a room that isn't used much.
I do intend to replace it at some point but because someone has built a brick mantlepiece around it, it will be a little awkward to replace at short notice - the only fire I have seen with similar dimensions is the Robinson Willey Firegem. Most other outset fires are to high or too wide for the mantlepiece.

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Reply to leelister6:
Hi, I understand your point about the danger. I can leave the pilot tap within the fire turned permanently off as the room is only used now and then.
But I do think that the gas fitters actions were OTT. It wasn't necessary to disconnect the fire and cap it off. They only needed to turn off the pilot tap (easily accessible from the front of the fire)
as this was the source of the supposed 'leak'.
They took the decision to isolate the gas supply at the mains and this is why the pilot went out.
I think that as gas safe trained people they should have been able to work this out.

 

[mickie]

id be happy to have an old fire without a thermocouple and leave the pilot lit.. what if im going out ? i wouldnt worry because it would take a long time for a pilot to fill a room full of gas.. maybe if i was on holiday i'd make sure all the gas is off, just how i make sure most of the electric is off too..

 

[leelister6]

id be happy to have an old fire without a thermocouple and leave the pilot lit.. what if im going out ? i wouldnt worry because it would take a long time for a pilot to fill a room full of gas.. maybe if i was on holiday i'd make sure all the gas is off, just how i make sure most of the electric is off too..

It would take an average room (50Cu.M) approx 5 days to reach the explosive limit (5%) for NG from a pilot burning 750 Btu/hr (figures from internet so not sure how reliable!) Not very long in my opinion, I certainly wouldn't think to turn my gas off if I was just going away for a week. (Never thought about this till this thread!) Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be happy leaving that situation without some action on my part, even if it's just covering signature

 

[leelister6]

Reply to leelister6:
Hi, I understand your point about the danger. I can leave the pilot tap within the fire turned permanently off as the room is only used now and then.
But I do think that the gas fitters actions were OTT. It wasn't necessary to disconnect the fire and cap it off. They only needed to turn off the pilot tap (easily accessible from the front of the fire)
as this was the source of the supposed 'leak'.
They took the decision to isolate the gas supply at the mains and this is why the pilot went out.
I think that as gas safe trained people they should have been able to work this out.

Just because someone is gas safe reg. it doesn't mean they know everything about every appliance, this job is a massive learning curve. I for one wasn't aware that there were gas fires still out there without F.S.D's and if I found that someone I knew had one I would be strongly recommending they get rid! Will be interesting to see some of the more experienced gas fitter's opinions on here

 

[Toddyplumb]

There are still a few of those thorn fires out there, you can still get the pilot "spring" . Its easy to turn it off and use a spark gun to light the fire

 

[Blake]

So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.

Just because something does not seem right or ok does not always mean that it is incorrect. I can see where you are coming from but you need to be careful. If you go around issuing 'at risk' notices to every gas appliance that does not have a FSD you could soon find yourself with several upset customers.

There was a case once of an engineer who capped of an appliance because of this very situation. The customer was a lawyer and upset by his actions and took him to court and won the case.

Also, as I am sure you are aware, 'at risk' only requires the appliance to be turned off, not capped.

And, consider this, would you cap off every cooker or hob you came across that did not have a thermocouple? same principle and there are loads of cookers without them. All NTCS.

 

[aggis]

Quite simply the engineers should have checked the fire & turned off the pilot issolation screw, then pressure tested the installation.

1. They were in a rush & just took it as a leak.
Or
2. Inexperienced.

They should definately reconnect it for you, but did act reasponsibly & safely.

We all live & learn.

 

[leelister6]

Just because something does not seem right or ok does not always mean that it is incorrect. I can see where you are coming from but you need to be careful. If you go around issuing 'at risk' notices to every gas appliance that does not have a FSD you could soon find yourself with several upset customers.

There was a case once of an engineer who capped of an appliance because of this very situation. The customer was a lawyer and upset by his actions and took him to court and won the case.

Also, as I am sure you are aware, 'at risk' only requires the appliance to be turned off, not capped.

And, consider this, would you cap off every cooker or hob you came across that did not have a thermocouple? same principle and there are loads of cookers without them. All NTCS.

Did I write CAPPED off?! My bad

 

[Blake]

???????? Not sure why you are replying with caps, have I offended you in some way? And yes you stated you would cap it off with the customers permission and issue an 'at risk notice'

 

[diamondgas]

Hi Chris,
If you're concerned about a build up of gas, which IMHO is extremely unlikely, just turn the pilot isolation tap off. They still haven't done anything about your smell in the kitchen by the sounds of it. I'd agree they were well OTT. It happens more times than you'll believe. TRANSCO are good at doing exactly the same.......! Some of us, however, remember the Meridians with fondness and they throw out a load of heat!!!

 

[GrahamM]

If the fire is operating safely, the way it was designed, then you are well within your rights to have the fire reconnected and I would press them on this.
Just because the regs are updated does not automatically mean an appliance becomes dangerous or 'At Risk' because it does not comply to these new updates. The appliance is 'not to current standards'.
I would be weary of it myself, but as long as you are aware of the potential dangers involved with the appliance then that is your right to keep using it.

 

[leelister6]

Replying with caps cos I didn't realise I put CAPPED off when I should have put TURNED off. Not offended at all, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Blake]

Phew, thought I'd upset you without realising

 

[leelister6]

Phew, thought I'd upset you without realising

Nah mate, I don't mind admitting it if I make a mistake........Hope ar lass int reading this!!

 

[kirkgas]

So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.

there is a fine line between giving the customer good technical advice and advising the fire could/should be renewed,BUT it is not AR it is fit for purpose as per design and can be left running if the customer wants it left on,

 

[kirkgas]

replying with caps cos i didn't realise i put capped off when i should have put turned off. Not offended at all, thanks for pointing it out.

haha stop shoutin its rude

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i have to agree,just because the technologlys old and has no fsd does not make it dangerous,its working as designed you can not id or ar a appliance just because you think the safety designs not as safe as it could be,it was considered ok when designed ,so you adhere to mi,s

 

[diamondgas]

Permanent pilots are inefficient and that is all they will ever be! You will never be able to blow up a house, flat or otherwise unless it was devout of ventilation!

Well maybe a Wendy house! ............ REALLY SMALL ONE!

 

[leelister6]

Can I say 'bolloks' on this forum without being excluded?

well done so!

Permanent pilots are inefficient and that is all they will ever be! You will never be able to blow up a house, flat or otherwise unless it was devout of ventilation!

Well maybe a Wendy house! ............ REALLY SMALL ONE!

This sounds like a job for mythbusters!!

 

[kirkgas]

Permanent pilots are inefficient and that is all they will ever be! You will never be able to blow up a house, flat or otherwise unless it was devout of ventilation!

Well maybe a Wendy house! ............ REALLY SMALL ONE!

OMG my pal is called wendy and she has a house, i'm going round tomorrow to see if she has a gas fire

 

[kirkgas]

seen the news earlier. in america they are raving about shale gas, the clip says it is getting into the water supply and it showed people lighting the water as it came out the tap, looked excellant

 

[Puddle]

seen the news earlier. in america they are raving about shale gas, the clip says it is getting into the water supply and it showed people lighting the water as it came out the tap, looked excellant

natural ,cheap hot and cold running water !

Do the taps come with room ventilation requirements

 

[Toddyplumb]

There are real concern over shale gas , and there are inquiries under way . It is obtained by hydraulically fracturing (at about 145000psi ) the rock . The problem is the fluid used to fracture the rock contains hydrochloric acid, biocide and polycrylamide which is then in the water supply
There are test holes for this in the UK , Bowland and Preston

 

[stevetheplumber]

most gas fitters under the age of forty havent seen many appliances with pilots so it an understandable mistake which they should put right as to pilots being dangerous we used to have several standing pilots in our old kitchen the one on the grill saved us having to put the light on at night
oh what fun we would have when the shilling run out especialy getting the fridge one to light had to put a plate with hole in over the flue and wait till gas filled the flue tube then put a match to it

 

[bobgarden]

most gas fitters under the age of forty havent seen many appliances with pilots so it an understandable mistake which they should put right as to pilots being dangerous we used to have several standing pilots in our old kitchen the one on the grill saved us having to put the light on at night
oh what fun we would have when the shilling run out especialy getting the fridge one to light had to put a plate with hole in over the flue and wait till gas filled the flue tube then put a match to it

LOL showing some age there mate. Never seen a gas fridge...

Would scrap the fire and buy a new one. Of if you cant afford it right now i would remove/cap off and wait. I know it was ok when installed but too easy for somthing to happen if ask me.

 

[stevetheplumber]

ive still got a standing pilot on my vailant boiler no problems except outage in the wind

 

[mickie]

pilots should not blow out in the wind, get your boiler looked at