Level 3 Diploma 6035 Some questions about the course

[rogerb20]

[h=2]Level 2 Diploma 6035 recently completed at college. I Have been offered a place at college for the level 3 but all the feed back on here implies that its a waste of time. Just yesterday i was offered a job with a company that i did some work experience for earlier on in the year. I am not sure which way to go.
Some of the questions i couldn't ask the tutor at the interview because of the tight time slots.
What is the practical work that you have to do for L3 ?[/h]Could someone give me some idea of the sort of maths calculations that you do on this level.
Is the installation test broken down into sections This test is the only one that worries me the most.
Any help or advice would be most helpful.
Best regards
Stacey

 

[Jules]

Hi Stacey, I just completed Level 2 6035 and am going onto the Level 3. I don't have the full breakdown yet, but I understand the level 3 is more theory based than level 2, more maths etc.
The details are on the C&G website but most of the docs are password-protected - maybe they are afraid we will rush off and learn it all without attending the course!
If you have been offered a job, would your employer let you do the 6189 on day release? This would be better as it incorporates the full NVQ, whereas the 6035 does not.
Good luck anyway!
Julie

 

[newcastle phill]

The 3 is deffo more theory based.
Gas controls. Unvented and wiring is about the most practical youll do from memory unless its changed.
Nothing like the relentless 2 workshop

 

[Jules]

Not sure but I think unvented is now a separate course 3345?

 

[newcastle phill]

I dont know why we bothered.
We did it but at the end although we passed - deffo not g3 qualified roflmao...

Go figure. ...

 

[chris watkins]

Take the job every time. you need the 6189 NVQ its the only one that is recognised in industry find out about moving over from 6035 to 6189.
Level 3 is a must to be a proper plumber but no good doing the 6035 if you have no site / work experience to go with all that class room stuff.

If you need help with the 6189 NVQ side contact J.T.L training.

 

[wetdrip]

grab the job!
watch, listen and learn from your journeyman.
Then do level 3 or whatever your journeyman recommends.
grab the job, grab the job, grab the job.

 

[rogerb20]

Thanks newcastle phill, Jules & chris watkins for the above info.
Its just i keep being told different things & i didn't know what to do for the best.
So can i use plumbing L2 6035 to go towards the 6189 NVQ 2 if that makes sense.
I turned down the L3 6035 college course.( just out of interest can the L3 6035 count towards a level 3 NVQ) The job hourly rate offered was £10 hourly. Didn't know if that was good.
At least i will be gaining more practical experience hopefully but only after clearing up & tea making etc. I don't mind that because they are taking a chance.
Thanks again everyone
Stacey

 

[chris watkins]

It is possible to convert all the 6035 units over to the 6189 L2 you will need to do unit 003 which environmental unit & of course you will have to do all your on-site stuff on top.

It is a whole different ball game at Level 3, nothing of any worth can be APL across from 6035 to 6189.
How it is that they get away offering the course I do not know, its another con, just like all the 6129 Tech Certs there to provide FE with a bit more funding & government to place boys & girls who can't find proper jobs.

As a side note, it looks like future planning will mean that there will be no more funding for just Level 2 courses you (or your employer) will have to pay for it.

Funding will only be available for programs that go right through to level 3, might make things a bit interesting!!!

 

[rogerb20]

Thanks again Chris for taking the time to explain things.
best regards
Stacey

 

[Jules]

It is possible to convert all the 6035 units over to the 6189 L2 you will need to do unit 003 which environmental unit & of course you will have to do all your on-site stuff on top.

It is a whole different ball game at Level 3, nothing of any worth can be APL across from 6035 to 6189.
How it is that they get away offering the course I do not know, its another con, just like all the 6129 Tech Certs there to provide FE with a bit more funding & government to place boys & girls who can't find proper jobs.

As a side note, it looks like future planning will mean that there will be no more funding for just Level 2 courses you (or your employer) will have to pay for it.

Funding will only be available for programs that go right through to level 3, might make things a bit interesting!!!

The Level 3 modules on 6035 are exactly the same as the 6189 apart from a couple which you can sit later to convert to 6189. You also have to do the on-site NVQ portfolio. If you don't believe me, ask City and Guilds and they will confirm. Ask them also for the 6035 to 6189 APL schedule which they will email to you in PDF.

 

[Jules]

Stacey, I would still be advising you to take the job if they are going to sponsor you through the 6189. But please do your own research as to what is best for you personally, and don't take anyone's word for it on this forum ( including mine!) - check with City and Guilds for yourself to find out what the latest rules are as per my post above.
Good luck!,
Julie

 

[chris watkins]

I wouldn't trust City & Guilds as far as I could throw em. Having just seen them in action for the past 10 year I know what I am talking about.

Jules I know why you want to promote 6035 L3 but come on, you & I know you can't begin to understand the complexities of plumbing & heating at this level without having been on a site.

To suggest to students who are paying good money that they can is dishonest.

To that end C&G agreed that there would be NO college only based course like the old 6129 Tech Cert's (L2 & 3), to stop the massive miss-selling that took place in the past of these courses & then duly caved-in under pressure from the FE colleges because of the hit to their money through funding.

 

[rogerb20]

Thanks again Chris & Jules.
The job is only with a 2 man team & have said that they will look into the NVQ side of things in a years time. Chris i left my details with JTL but haven't heard anything back yet. If i paid for the NVQ route myself would it cost a lot. Is it still 18 months that you have from when you finish college to Finish the NVQ, if that makes sense.
Thanks agains everyone
Best regards
Stacey

 

[chris watkins]

The Level 3 modules on 6035 are exactly the same as the 6189 apart from a couple which you can sit later to convert to 6189. You also have to do the on-site NVQ portfolio. If you don't believe me, ask City and Guilds and they will confirm. Ask them also for the 6035 to 6189 APL schedule which they will email to you in PDF.

No they are not !!
6035 includes Gas, for some reason & this is often done at the beginning of the course, if that isn't encouraging people to go out & break the Law I don't know what is !!!!

There are lots of things which can't be same, Electrical unit for instants, this takes from Sep to Feb to cover half day a week etc etc.

I will say again if you have not been on site for a good length of time you can not possible reach the same levels of understanding (required) through the 6035 compared to the 6189 NVQ!!!

Why do you think they have the two if as you claim they are the same?

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Stacey
If you don't mind how old are you & whereabouts are you based ? (PM me if you like)
It is your age that determines how much the government will pay towards your training.

The thing about competing the 6189 NVQ is that you completed it while you are working & training so as long as you get the evidence on-site it can be finished within the 18months to two years (or sooner if you are really up for it).

Try JTL again quick! ask for the contact details of your local on-site assessor.

 

[Jules]

I don't trust any big organisations, least of all City and Guilds!

All I am saying is that 6035 provides a route into plumbing which is otherwise unavailable to career changers with home responsibilities. On my course we have carers, self-employed builders, employees, and unemployed people. Everyone is aware of the requirements for site work and has their own individual way of attaining it in the time available to them. We have all signed a declaration that we are aware we are not fully qualified on the back of 6035 alone.

I agree that some private firms have exploited the qualification but the answer is surely to deal with that issue, rather than to withdraw this route from everybody?

Sure, the colleges get funding but they also have to deliver the course, with the costs that entails, to get the funding.

Just out of interest one of the lads on our course has been sent on it by United Utilities, who do seem to recognise it! As they should, seeing as the sylaabus is the same as 6189.

 

[rogerb20]

Just turned 35 & near Norwich so i don't thing i would qualify for any help, Way to old.
Thats why i was asking about how much it would roughly cost.
Thanks again.
Stacey

 

[Jules]

Just turned 35 & near Norwich so i don't thing i would qualify for any help, Way to old.
Thats why i was asking about how much it would roughly cost.
Thanks again.
Stacey

Hi you will qualify for 24plus advanced learning loan which is not means tested.

Type it into gov.UK website.

 

[Jules]

Sorry I will rephrase what I said:

The modules which ARE covered in 6035 are same as on 6189.

The modules NOT covered in 6035 (ie electrical and some others) you will have to do, along with the site work, to get the full 6189NVQ.

Also bear in mind you still have to do the Gas Safe assessments if you want to do gas, unvented if you want to do thst, and the water regs.

Not everyone wants to do gas, some just work with another engineer who can be called on when gas work is needed.

 

[Kay101]

When did city and guilds agree not to run tech certs?
Original Tech certs were designed by the sector skills council
The sector skills council create the apprenticeships
I never heard any promise from any certification body that they wouldnt run a tech cert - think you may be getting confused with the sector skills council maybe?
There are other certification bodies who run tech certs, if we are to be fair the same should be said of them?
City guilds tech cert contains a disclaimer signed by the pupil which states they will not be fully qualified and understand this
The 6035 contains a unit on becoming further qualified
I think this shows reasonable efforts have been made to ensure pupils dont take the course without knowing the facts
if this is misold then the surely he issue is with trading standards and the centre not the certification body?

 

[Kay101]

Sorry I will rephrase what I said:

The modules which ARE covered in 6035 are same as on 6189.

The modules NOT covered in 6035 (ie electrical and some others) you will have to do, along with the site work, to get the full 6189NVQ.

Also bear in mind you still have to do the Gas Safe assessments if you want to do gas, unvented if you want to do thst, and the water regs.

Not everyone wants to do gas, some just work with another engineer who can be called on when gas work is needed.

The units are not the same, you can always check the content of the units yourself by downloading them from their site

 

[chris watkins]

When did city and guilds agree not to run tech certs?
Original Tech certs were designed by the sector skills council
The sector skills council create the apprenticeships
I never heard any promise from any certification body that they wouldnt run a tech cert - think you may be getting confused with the sector skills council maybe?
There are other certification bodies who run tech certs, if we are to be fair the same should be said of them?
City guilds tech cert contains a disclaimer signed by the pupil which states they will not be fully qualified and understand this
The 6035 contains a unit on becoming further qualified
I think this shows reasonable efforts have been made to ensure pupils dont take the course without knowing the facts
if this is misold then the surely he issue is with trading standards and the centre not the certification body?

So on that basis you would say, would you, that the Guilds were not complicit in any way when they sold tens (if not a hundred) thousands of the 6129's through centres that they approved, inspected & audited then ?

We won't ever know the true number or revenue generated for them, cos they won't tell.

In the commercial world (& my book), if you take the money for a produce that is being sold by others you have a responsibility to ensure that the purchasers are not being miss sold it or that it is being missused.

I am not convinced that a one-liner about not being fully qualified until further training is undertaken, removes that responsibility, do you ?

A career-changer who has the intention of going self-employed to gain employment is not going to worry are they ??

 

[Kay101]

So on that basis you would say, would you, that the Guilds were not complicit in any way when they sold tens (if not a hundred) thousands of the 6129's through centres that they approved, inspected & audited then ?

We won't ever know the true number or revenue generated for them, cos they won't tell.

In the commercial world (& my book), if you take the money for a produce that is being sold by others you have a responsibility to ensure that the purchasers are not being miss sold it or that it is being missused.

I am not convinced that a one-liner about not being fully qualified until further training is undertaken, removes that responsibility, do you ?

A career-changer who has the intention of going self-employed to gain employment is not going to worry are they ??

no supplier is responsible for the end user -all criticism should be aimed at the people who responsible.
A career changer wanting to go self employed will know the facts of the course they are taking, if they have other intentions that is not the fault of the qual
when there was no tech cert these people went self employed anyway
nothing stopping any centre in designing and running their own courses, at least this way it is controlled to an extent

 

[Kay101]

I agree the amount of tech certs sold years ago was never going to lead to jobs for everyone, the ratio of NVQs to tech certs was wrong but thats not the fault of the qualification. the qual was a good one and was a good system. the problem occurred with the press and the large amounts of people wanting this qual, had it been lower numbers we prob wouldn't be discussing it now. but i maintain its not the fault of the qual or any certification body.
If there has been miseeling and im not convinced thats as bad as some claim, often its the person enrolling that hears what they want to hear, I've known them try it on, contact gas safe to say they passed everything and blame the centre when they only have a tc3. if miselling is/was a problem then learners need to take it up with the center or trading standards, it would be difficult for any cert body to get strong enough evidence to do anything about it even if they wanted, I also maintain its not their responsibility. Any rogue provider would have their paperwork in order so it wouldnt be that easy. I did hear of one being shut down because they offered the NVQ without site experience, so if thats true then they have acted in the past when they can.
I just feel your criticism although valid was maybe not aimed fairly at the right culprits - often the learner themselves
Moving forward the numbers are nowhere near what they used to be, the 6035 is a different qual with different content and a disclaimer, the level 3 requires a big jump to an nvq. I feel these quals should be available to help genuine school leavers and re trainers

 

[Kay101]

Thanks newcastle phill, Jules & chris watkins for the above info.
Its just i keep being told different things & i didn't know what to do for the best.
So can i use plumbing L2 6035 to go towards the 6189 NVQ 2 if that makes sense.
I turned down the L3 6035 college course.( just out of interest can the L3 6035 count towards a level 3 NVQ) The job hourly rate offered was £10 hourly. Didn't know if that was good.
At least i will be gaining more practical experience hopefully but only after clearing up & tea making etc. I don't mind that because they are taking a chance.
Thanks again everyone
Stacey

yes some of the units do cross over but the jump is greater than the level 2.
L3 6189 is a very demanding course, the 6035 is for school leavers or full time career changers to educate them in the skills, therefore there will be lots more to learn when they have the experience to go further. It is a good course as it gives you all the underpinning knowledge at the advanced level, it is not aligned with Competence person schemes on purpose as you wouldnt have the skills and experience to warrant it. However when you get the chance to progress you wouldnt have to repeat all the learning, maybe some top up and all the on site stuff depending on pathway chosen
it is mainly theory as complex systems require knowledge, there is some practical but it tends to be coplex commissioning and wiring which is difficult but by nature doesnt take as long as l2 practical
IMO a good course but know what it is and what it isnt

 

[Jules]

The units are not the same, you can always check the content of the units yourself by downloading them from their site

Thanks for this info, I will indeed check these points it because the college has said modules are the same.

 

[Kay101]

Thanks for this info, I will indeed check these points it because the college has said modules are the same.

Definitely not the same, same title, same subject, very similar content, but not quite as difficult, hence why it isnt aligned to CPS. Should you progress after this you can carry it across but will have to do some upgrading

 

[Kay101]

Not sure but I think unvented is now a separate course 3345?

there is a seperate course but the 6189 is aligned to it so doesnt have to be repeated, not the same for the 6035

 

[chris watkins]

yes some of the units do cross over but the jump is greater than the level 2.
L3 6189 is a very demanding course, the 6035 is for school leavers or full time career changers to educate them in the skills, therefore there will be lots more to learn when they have the experience to go further. It is a good course as it gives you all the underpinning knowledge at the advanced level, it is not aligned with Competence person schemes on purpose as you wouldnt have the skills and experience to warrant it. However when you get the chance to progress you wouldnt have to repeat all the learning, maybe some top up and all the on site stuff depending on pathway chosen
it is mainly theory as complex systems require knowledge, there is some practical but it tends to be coplex commissioning and wiring which is difficult but by nature doesnt take as long as l2 practical
IMO a good course but know what it is and what it isnt

I am sorry Kay but you really do need to get out into the real world!!

How is anyone suppose to learn these complex systems, you talk about & see how they apply to the other areas of the industry / subject if they have never been out on site for any length of time?
It just does not work.
I have seen a good number of apprentices over the years who started well at L2 some top of the class then watch them fall right down to the bottom by the time they are in the level 3 first year, why, because they worked for firms that did such limited variety of work that they just could not apply what was being taught, some were lucky enough to change jobs & flourished again, others who couldn't never completed it.

You claim its a good course but they should know what it is or isn't. That brings to mind the old adage "you don't know what you don't know" in other words how are you going to find out until your in it.

 

[Kay101]

I am sorry Kay but you really do need to get out into the real world!!

How is anyone suppose to learn these complex systems, you talk about & see how they apply to the other areas of the industry / subject if they have never been out on site for any length of time?
It just does not work.
I have seen a good number of apprentices over the years who started well at L2 some top of the class then watch them fall right down to the bottom by the time they are in the level 3 first year, why, because they worked for firms that did such limited variety of work that they just could not apply what was being taught, some were lucky enough to change jobs & flourished again, others who couldn't never completed it.

You claim its a good course but they should know what it is or isn't. That brings to mind the old adage "you don't know what you don't know" in other words how are you going to find out until your in it.

if you can only learn on the job why have any course?

yes you can learn the systems in the classroom, its called education, something im a big fan of. a learner should know its limitations, and so should employers, when i take someone who has completed a l3 whether it be 6035 or 6189 i support them through a period of furthe rlearning, expecting anyone to be full force after just finishing is unreasonable

yes im in the real world

 

[Jules]

I am sorry Kay but you really do need to get out into the real world!!

How is anyone suppose to learn these complex systems, you talk about & see how they apply to the other areas of the industry / subject if they have never been out on site for any length of time?
It just does not work.
I have seen a good number of apprentices over the years who started well at L2 some top of the class then watch them fall right down to the bottom by the time they are in the level 3 first year, why, because they worked for firms that did such limited variety of work that they just could not apply what was being taught, some were lucky enough to change jobs & flourished again, others who couldn't never completed it.

You claim its a good course but they should know what it is or isn't. That brings to mind the old adage "you don't know what you don't know" in other words how are you going to find out until your in it.

Chris do you think you could possibly comment without resorting to attacking people, especially when you know nothing about their background, qualifications or experience? It really does make you appear to have an almighty big chip on your shoulder which I am sure is the wrong impression of you, after all I don't even know you........?

 

[chris watkins]

if you can only learn on the job why have any course?

yes you can learn the systems in the classroom, its called education, something im a big fan of. a learner should know its limitations, and so should employers, when i take someone who has completed a l3 whether it be 6035 or 6189 i support them through a period of furthe rlearning, expecting anyone to be full force after just finishing is unreasonable

yes im in the real world

Of course you need both, on the job & class room training, that my :furious3oint.
I am sure your harts in the right place & you care but look back at some of your post.

Why have a complex Level 3 qualification for school levers (6035)?

Why is the 6035 L3 so similar to the 6189 but not quite ? Why not just have the one? The subject matter i.e. plumbing & heating does't change, does it? Stop pretending, its all about selling something & making money !!

 

[chris watkins]

chris do you think you could possibly comment without resorting to attacking people, especially when you know nothing about their background, qualifications or experience? It really does make you appear to have an almighty big chip on your shoulder which i am sure is the wrong impression of you, after all i don't even know you........?

no…..

 

[Kay101]

Of course you need both, on the job & class room training, that my :furious3oint.
I am sure your harts in the right place & you care but look back at some of your post.

Why have a complex Level 3 qualification for school levers (6035)?

Why is the 6035 L3 so similar to the 6189 but not quite ? Why not just have the one? The subject matter i.e. plumbing & heating does't change, does it? Stop pretending, its all about selling something & making money !!

why not have one? - if you are not employed you cannot gain the 6189-3, therefore there is a route for those with aspirations to enter the industry or with just an interest - we should not deny people the right to education, i support education and promote it
its not quite the same - correct and this protects industry whilst educating people - a win win
stop pretending its about making money? i was pretending or even mentioned money - this is about opportunities for people rather than an elitist right for the few