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GreenArmy

Is a landlords safety check the same as a full service i.e.....
Does the Landlords Safety Check require the boiler to be stripped and heat exchanger and burner to be cleaned as a full service would?
Basically im asking if there is a big difference (or any difference) between a Landlords Safety Check and a Full Service?
 
landlorn check is generally checking the condition of the appliance, working through the reg 26(9)
 
Well a gas safety inspection is not a full service but the days of 'a full service' are numbered on new boilers,an flue gas anaylser test and a check of the safety devices and visual check is more appropriate,which is done during gas safety inspection
In fact to do a full service,in old fashoned terms, on a new boiler would probably leave in a worse and more dangerous condition
However on older boilers,especially on opened flued appliances,it is very important the boilers are serviced the old way,stripping down and this is on top of any gas safety inspection carried out,as should fires
Would also recommend co alarms left at property
To many punters now think there gas appliances have been checked for safety and were ok so do not need servicing and some would say this has made some appliances more dangerous,however when checked ,the service requirement should be brought to the owners attention and if done at the same time a discounted rate can be given
However alot of back boilers and fires have been cut off because burning incorrectly during inspections basically for the sake of a good old fashioned service,this would not have been done if inspection had not been required so it works both ways,think the inspections are far more benificial at getting boilers serviced than not
 
I always carry out a full service before i issue a cp12 as puddle says the old boilers get the full monty where as the new babies get cleaned wp checked gas rated and analysed:)
 
no chance - landlord check consists of visual checks - analyser - gas pressures. if any of them are not right then i suggest a service or repair and ar or id the boiler - landlords are trying there best to get this cheaper and cheaper - and many heating engineers are driving down the prices - if they want a service they can have it service no problem if they want it checked i will check it - they are 2 different services and i point this out. An mot on a car is equivelant to a landlord safety check - a service is as it says on the tin a service.

on newer boilers such as the worcestors i wont check fan pressures unless its a service - gas pressures and analyser only. sorry mr landlord but the service is extra even if im only checking one thing more. Im fed up of this trade being saturated anymore than it is already.
 
what you do is in the wording safety checks are just that but when there is a of appliance fitted then a full service should be carried out at the end of the day you sign the paper work you take responsibility my self i always undertake a full old fashioned service on a openflued appliance
 
i agree it is best to service AND do a LGSC but they are 2 completely different things and you should only do what you are being paid to do, i used to look after a gas dept and we had 14000 social housing properties on the books, our contract was very specific, a LGSC AND serice appliances as required was what was priced for and done, but many ask for a safety check so that is what they get, which includes flue flow and spillage, visual inspection TT on full gas carcass and write up the report, if any faults found then thats on the report as an extra, for the price that a landlord wantss to pay they cant get a service and LGSC
 
i agree it is best to service AND do a LGSC but they are 2 completely different things and you should only do what you are being paid to do, i used to look after a gas dept and we had 14000 social housing properties on the books, our contract was very specific, a LGSC AND serice appliances as required was what was priced for and done, but many ask for a safety check so that is what they get, which includes flue flow and spillage, visual inspection TT on full gas carcass and write up the report, if any faults found then thats on the report as an extra, for the price that a landlord wantss to pay they cant get a service and LGSC

Well done kirky hit the nail on the head there, landlord safety check is an mot and a service like a car is a service, you dont get your car serviced when you put it in for an mot , why would a gas engineer carry out aservice for free when doing a safety check?
 
Well done kirky hit the nail on the head there, landlord safety check is an mot and a service like a car is a service, you dont get your car serviced when you put it in for an mot , why would a gas engineer carry out aservice for free when doing a safety check?
Great analogy oldplumber. That says it all!
 
Well done kirky hit the nail on the head there, landlord safety check is an mot and a service like a car is a service, you dont get your car serviced when you put it in for an mot , why would a gas engineer carry out aservice for free when doing a safety check?

because a service on a car wont save your life an mot will , a service on a boiler will save your life !! you cant compare the two
 
ferret mate - if you sell a service and a cp12 combined then fairplay to you - but you cant say that if you dont service a boiler it will kill someone, the landlord safety check is just that - checking the appliance is running safely - same as an mot - have you ever had an mot and the tyres only just passed - theyre not saying that it is safe for twelve months but on the day it passed it was regarded safe - thats why its only 35 quid for an mot - if you take it for a service you have the oil changed brakes done, liquids topped up etc etc. same as a lanlord and safety check - analyser on if it doesnt meet correct standards - id it and suggest a service. Thats what i do - the landlord will then pay for a service which i will then take it apart service it thoroughly and then issue another cp12.
 
I didnt say it will kill you what i said was you cannot compare it to an mot , and a car service , because its not the servicing of the car but the mot that can save your life , same as servicing a boiler can , and the cp12 is not just for that day not in my opinion anyway , we are talking about an appliance that can give off deadly gases without any warning to the user untill its usually too late , and for my peace of mind anyway i will not issue a cert unless i know 100% that it is safe .
 
agree to disagree then pal - i think your mixed up with landlord certs and services they are 2 different services - one is a safety check and one is a service - you are offering a joint service - but its wrong imo to knock others who carry out landlord certs and services seperatly as they are both a job in there own right.

we compare them to mots and services as there are similarities - emissions checked etc etc - if the car fails an emissions test the mot station will not start taking it apart and clean it for you - they just give it you back failed - get it sorted bring it back - the analogys are the same imo. we are given guidlines in MFI's that when analysing or checking pressures it tells us if its not running in a safe manner. i will not even alter gas pressures on a landlord cert - ive had a few gas valves go on me and the landlord saying well it was working fine untill you started playing with it!! So now they get a ar,id,ncs depending on the fail, then they can go from there! i dunno what landlords you work for matey but they will have you by the balls as much as look at you.
 
same thinking here q plumb. mine are a safety inspection and do not include a service, that is extra. Plus, as previously said, with modern combi's an annual safety check is all that is required unless it fails this and stripping them down repeatedly can do more harm than good or need specialist tools and parts making it a much more expensive job.
 
MOTs were designed to save life and ensure cars worked within set parameters aka landlord check. if a boiler needs a service due to a poor flame picture, it fails the safety check and a service is reccommended, simple really, hence why we do safety checks and then a service if required. if you want to do it another way thats your choice and potentially loss of income, but I ultimately want to do things saftely and earn a reasonable living.
 
Well done q-plumb couldnt put it better myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
As a landlord, for the last few years I found this post quite interesting. I have a friend (not many though) who does gas work for me. I do not allow him to touch the boilers on the properties that are rented. The reason is (as you can all understand) business and friendship are 2 different things.

I will quite happily sue a gas safe op who issues a cert if something is wrong and then someone gets hurt. By signing that paper the Gas safe chap/chapess has taken the responsibility for it.

Having said that if I was presented a bill for ÂŁxx + vat for service and then ÂŁxx +vat for issuing the cert, I will find someone else.

As a landlord "right" or "wrong" I see them as the same thing. There is never an argument either, if the gas safe op says it needs this or that it gets it. In all fairness, I never get a call just a bill. Any additional work is done and paid for no question.

Also when I do these for other customers (under supervision etc etc) the service and the gas safe cert form part of the same thing. I think (only on occasion) landlords expect this.
 
I will quite happily sue a gas safe op who issues a cert if something is wrong and then someone gets hurt. By signing that paper the Gas safe chap/chapess has taken the responsibility for it.

You'd have a hard time doing that because a Landlord's Gas Safety RECORD is NOT A CERTIFICATE. It's a RECORD of the state of the appliances at the time that the RGI did the checks. If they find something unsafe they of course have to act (NCS/AR/ID procedure) but, as highly unlikely as it is, in theory, a gas appliance could be fine one day then kill someone the next, and certainly deteriorate over the course of the year. It's not a guarantee - "I, the undersigned RGI, promise that this boiler/cooker/fire won't kill anyone within the next year" - coz that's just ridiculous. It is the LANDLORD's responsibility to maintain the gas appliances in their property.

When I recommend a service or this or that to landlords, they usually just assume you're digging for work and they are too tight to want to spend any more money than they have to 95% of the time. And I hate doing breakdowns on landlord's boilers coz they're nearly always poorly maintained pieces of sh*t for the same reason. "No annual service, thank you very much, just pass my certificate!". Money money money. Which, funnily enough, you highlighted by saying straight away that YOU'd sue if a tennant got hurt. Ha ha.
 
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As a landlord, for the last few years I found this post quite interesting. I have a friend (not many though) who does gas work for me. I do not allow him to touch the boilers on the properties that are rented. The reason is (as you can all understand) business and friendship are 2 different things.

I will quite happily sue a gas safe op who issues a cert if something is wrong and then someone gets hurt. By signing that paper the Gas safe chap/chapess has taken the responsibility for it.

Having said that if I was presented a bill for ÂŁxx + vat for service and then ÂŁxx +vat for issuing the cert, I will find someone else.

As a landlord "right" or "wrong" I see them as the same thing. There is never an argument either, if the gas safe op says it needs this or that it gets it. In all fairness, I never get a call just a bill. Any additional work is done and paid for no question.

Also when I do these for other customers (under supervision etc etc) the service and the gas safe cert form part of the same thing. I think (only on occasion) landlords expect this.

see what i mean from a landlords mouth haha - they all expect more than they pay for.

ok lets put it this way the pipework is undersized causing working pressure to fall below mfi's - do you just upgrade pipework at no extra cost except for parts?
no you dont you id the boiler and report accordingly on the cp12 - go back to landlord bill them for cp12 i then tell them i can carry out work at set price if required and issue another cp12 free with the work carried out once passed.

Same goes for failing analyser results, i will report on cp12 ar or id accordingly and suggest a service which i will then offer my price and again offer a free cp12 with service once passed.

its the way it should be done imo and too many people are getting mixed up with them both and causing a lot of landlords to expect work for nothing such as yourself ss :D.

also ss if you asked for a landlord safety check you would get one and billed for one - if you asked for a service you would get one and billed for one - i would not carry out the service with the landlord safety check without you asking as they are 2 different services as ive already said...

if you asked for a cp12 and it failed and then you questioned me whether id serviced it i would quite happily let you find someone else :D
 
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The 2 are effectively not even really related.


You are probably referring to the process of testing for what is known as a;
Landlord Certificate.


This is a test comparable with the MOT; it checks a number of safety related items.


A service is just that. Although a RGI has a legal duty of care and can not leave any type of gas appliance working when it is not safe, it has nothing to do with a safety certificate.
 
As a land lord myself of many years, i ensure all my boilers are serviced annualy as thats what the maufacturers reccommend and i dont want to be sued if one goes wrong and injures a tenant. After all the law is clear, landlords are responsible for protecting tenants and they can only prove this by having a record of servicing appliances. the landlord certificate is to ensure there is a minimum standard kept by idiot landlords who wont take their responsibilities seriously due to cost, so now there are 2 forms of proof required needed by courts to prove you as a landlord have carried out your resposibilities properly. Sadly some people think they are the same thing and should be provided at a discounted price, sadly they and their tenants have to learn the hard way that nothing is free and saftey comes at a cost monetary or otherwise.

If the squirrel is qualified why doesnt he put his money where his mouth is and do his own tickets, or does that lead to suing yourself
 
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see what i mean from a landlords mouth haha - they all expect more than they pay for.

ok lets put it this way the pipework is undersized causing working pressure to fall below mfi's - do you just upgrade pipework at no extra cost except for parts?
no you dont you id the boiler and report accordingly on the cp12 - go back to landlord bill them for cp12 i then tell them i can carry out work at set price if required and issue another cp12 free with the work carried out once passed.

Same goes for failing analyser results, i will report on cp12 ar or id accordingly and suggest a service which i will then offer my price and again offer a free cp12 with service once passed.

its the way it should be done imo and too many people are getting mixed up with them both and causing a lot of landlords to expect work for nothing such as yourself ss :D.

also ss if you asked for a landlord safety check you would get one and billed for one - if you asked for a service you would get one and billed for one - i would not carry out the service with the landlord safety check without you asking as they are 2 different services as ive already said...

if you asked for a cp12 and it failed and then you questioned me whether id serviced it i would quite happily let you find someone else :D

I liked the replies especially this one.

First of all, if there was something wrong with the boiler in my properties I'd expect the job to be done and the certificate to be issued. I'd also expect to be charged for the repair. You also offer free cp12 if you carry out the repairs, which seems fair.

Secondly, if you failed to issue the cp12 because of a fault, I wouldn't ask whether you'd serviced if I'd expect it to have been done. Not because I expect something for nothing (which to be frank is a little insulting) but because that is the service I pay for at present.

Third, quite right that the landlord cert isn't really worth the paper its written on, the same as an mot, both the garage and gas safe say "it was working ok yesterday"

Lastly, if my gas safe/roofer/plasterer/sparks chap said something along the lines of "well, I did what you asked, now if you want that there's an extra charge" (if I thought it'd be included) then they wouldn't get a call back. They'd loose in the long run.
 
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As a land lord myself of many years, i ensure all my boilers are serviced annualy as thats what the maufacturers reccommend and i dont want to be sued if one goes wrong and injures a tenant. After all the law is clear, landlords are responsible for protecting tenants and they can only prove this by having a record of servicing appliances. the landlord certificate is to ensure there is a minimum standard kept by idiot landlords who wont take their responsibilities seriously due to cost, so now there are 2 forms of proof required needed by courts to prove you as a landlord have carried out your resposibilities properly. Sadly some people think they are the same thig and should be provided at a discounted price, sadly they ad their tenants have to learn the hard way that nothig is free and saftey comes at a cost monetary or otherwise.

If the squirrel is qualified why doesnt he put his money where his mouth is and do his own tickets, or does that lead to suing yourself

The reason is quite simple:

I always put my money where my mouth is in the first place. The reason I don't is because if anything goes wrong then I can't be accused of taking short cuts and issuing a cert without doing the work or checking.

I haven't said that I was qualified, I work with someone on gas as I'm hoping to be qualified soon,

REST assured I will still not be doing it on my own properties, not because I don't put my money where my mouth is though.
 
The reason is quite simple:

I always put my money where my mouth is in the first place. The reason I don't is because if anything goes wrong then I can't be accused of taking short cuts and issuing a cert without doing the work or checking.

I haven't said that I was qualified, I work with someone on gas as I'm hoping to be qualified soon,

REST assured I will still not be doing it on my own properties, not because I don't put my money where my mouth is though.


OK then explain again why you wont do your own services, it is mental that you are going to pay to get qualified, and do free work to get experience then you are going to pay someone else to do the gas as you dont want to be accused of cutting corners, nah it doesnt sound right, on one hand you seem like a perfect landlord (and there arent too many of them about) as you want a top dollar service BUT you are willing to pay top dollar, so if you did this yourself you could never be accused of cutting corners, it is your comment about suing a gas engineer if a tenant gets hurt that speaks a thousand words, you want to have someone plumbs in your vice like grip so you can squeeze them, if i did a safety check when would you say my liability ends? a good engineer will carry out a safety check and report all faults with correct implementation of IUP so who/why are you going to sue? a safety check is a snapshot in time, a report on the condition of the appliance/installation on ??/??/20?? at ?.??pm nothing more nothing less, you get a cert whether it passes or fails as it is a report, what the landlord needs is a clean report and as someone said (sorry cant be arsed looking who) they will give you a free 2nd cert if you pay for the follow up work, so if you want/instruct/pay for a top job your appliances must be in tip top condition, i think it shows a lack of confidence in your ability as you fear getting sued by your own tenants, but i assume when qualified you will do work for other landlords or private work, what if they sue you
 
please keep thread on topic ,with no personal remarks against other members

thank you
 
hear where your coming from puddle, but the issue here is unqualified people seem to be telling those who have tickets what they should be doing rather than listening to those who have the knowledge of the difference between a land lord cert and a service and how they should be applied, pity really as its this sort of reaction that tends to put one off responding to the initial question
 
hear where your coming from puddle, but the issue here is unqualified people seem to be telling those who have tickets what they should be doing rather than listening to those who have the knowledge of the difference between a land lord cert and a service and how they should be applied, pity really as its this sort of reaction that tends to put one off responding to the initial question

I was going to chill about all this but I just can't.

Its not about telling qualified people how to do the job or the difference between a service or a safety check, my original post was about putting a different perspective on the situation and perhaps giving a customers perspective.

I thought that was what this forum was about: an exchange of ideas, different views or opinions. Not becoming argumentative or insulting. I do in fact get the landlord safety check and a service for one price. If you don't do that thats fine but as a customer if that is what I pay for now then that is what I'd expect in the future!

oldplumber: I get the impression that the only opinion to have is yours and if you want someone elses opinion you'll give it to them.

In response to Kirkgas I have no trouble with confidence or my ability but there are very good business reasons why I do not and will not do certs on my properties, if you'd like (not meant as an insult, I'll PM you the reasons)
 
We always offer the following service to landlords
Do you just want the LL safety cert at ÂŁx depends on No of appliances
If it fails and needs serviced do you then want us to service at ÂŁy extra
Do you want us to do LL certs and service at ÂŁz , this is cheaper than ÂŁx + ÂŁy
All other repairs are seperate !
I think every LL on our books has the combined as they then have proof of service and LL cert
 
I was going to chill about all this but I just can't.

Its not about telling qualified people how to do the job or the difference between a service or a safety check, my original post was about putting a different perspective on the situation and perhaps giving a customers perspective.

I thought that was what this forum was about: an exchange of ideas, different views or opinions. Not becoming argumentative or insulting. I do in fact get the landlord safety check and a service for one price. If you don't do that thats fine but as a customer if that is what I pay for now then that is what I'd expect in the future!

oldplumber: I get the impression that the only opinion to have is yours and if you want someone elses opinion you'll give it to them.

In response to Kirkgas I have no trouble with confidence or my ability but there are very good business reasons why I do not and will not do certs on my properties, if you'd like (not meant as an insult, I'll PM you the reasons)


ss please dont think i was insulting you it wasnt meant that way - but when your working for landlords yourself or if you already are you'll know that your expected to do work for nothing. Aas youve said you pay for a service and a safety check fine.... the point here is they are different services and people shouldnt expect a service to automatically tie in with a landlord check they are different....

If your the type of landlord i could go and carry out a landlord check - if i find faults i could then rectify them and charge you for it without informing you then that would be great! your one ina million though pal - if i quoted for a landlord check at fifty quid or whatever then it needed a service i would bill you extra - which you then say you would not use me again ? so how can i win ? by quoting 50 for a landlord check then quoting 50-60 for a service which would mean you would not use me as i would be too expensive - perhaps you'll see where im coming from then.

dont think im insulting you - but there is a way of doing things imo and a landlord and a service for the price of a landlord cert is not the way to go imo.
 
I liked the replies especially this one.

First of all, if there was something wrong with the boiler in my properties I'd expect the job to be done and the certificate to be issued. I'd also expect to be charged for the repair. You also offer free cp12 if you carry out the repairs, which seems fair.

what without being informed of cost prior?

Secondly, if you failed to issue the cp12 because of a fault, I wouldn't ask whether you'd serviced if I'd expect it to have been done. Not because I expect something for nothing (which to be frank is a little insulting) but because that is the service I pay for at present.
i wouldnt of done a service as i was doing a landlord cert, and i would issue a cp12 but it would have the faults on it and boiler would be ar/id/ncs - what you pay for at present is irrelivant to what a landlord cert is and how it differs to a service.
Third, quite right that the landlord cert isn't really worth the paper its written on, the same as an mot, both the garage and gas safe say "it was working ok yesterday"
it is worth the paper its written on - it shows that you have took reasonable checks at regualar intervals
Lastly, if my gas safe/roofer/plasterer/sparks chap said something along the lines of "well, I did what you asked, now if you want that there's an extra charge" (if I thought it'd be included) then they wouldn't get a call back. They'd loose in the long run.
if you ask for a landlord check you get one - if you ask for a service you get one - you shouldnt assume you get something you dont ask for being in the trade i would of thought youd see this from our point of view

hope that clears up some of the points from my view - no harm meant and i certainly wasnt insulting anyone - sorry if it come across that way
 
I must admit I agree with secret squirrel about not doing his own servicing.

What a conflict of interest that would be in court, a good brief would have him for breakfast.

My own experience of check versus service is that they are a bit more difficult than they seem.

For instance if you remove a gas fire off a wall to check the flue behind it, you have disconnected it, then replaced it.
That leaves you in a bad position for in reality you may have reconnected a faulty appliance. You do of course check the appliance after reconnection and if it fails, ID it if its that bad.

In reality, for a gas fire you have probably done about 80% of a full service in a gas check.

You can't really say you have done a flue safety check, just by sticking a smoke match up the fires canopy edge, you have to look behind the closure plate as well to check the flues integrity.

The thing is landlords usually only want to pay a minimum amount for a safety check when in point depending on appliance you may have to do nearly a full service to do a proper check.

I once went to a site where the landlord owned the flue but the tenants the fire.
 
I'm a landlord that prices out for an annual inspection and service (how much of a service depends on MIs). The reason I'm so keen on a service is Reg 36 because it not only requires that we carry out the annual inspection but that we provide on-going maintenance -- which are distinct and separate duties.

Some of our tenants are quite reclusive. The inside of their properties never see an engineer but once a year, and half the time that's because I've threaten to take them to court. How else can I prove on-going maintenance to a gas installation unless I service it?
 
I once went to a site where the landlord owned the flue but the tenants the fire.

We have a fair few like that: they connect their gas fire to our chimney. We own the flue and have a duty to ensure that anything we provide for tenants' use is safe. So at service, I'd expect the engineers to pull out the fire, check the catchment space and flue route.

By pulling out the fire 26.9 comes into play, so yes by the time the engineer has finished he's done everything but service the fire.
 
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In response to Kirkgas I have no trouble with confidence or my ability but there are very good business reasons why I do not and will not do certs on my properties, if you'd like (not meant as an insult, I'll PM you the reasons)[/QUOTE]

yes that would be great, and please no need to say not meant as an insult, those of us (well most) on here like to banter different ideas about, so discussing/arguing/debating thats why we all come on here, to learn, to pass on info and to pass on knowledge
cheers
 
In response to Kirkgas I have no trouble with confidence or my ability but there are very good business reasons why I do not and will not do certs on my properties, if you'd like (not meant as an insult, I'll PM you the reasons)

yes that would be great, and please no need to say not meant as an insult, those of us (well most) on here like to banter different ideas about, so discussing/arguing/debating thats why we all come on here, to learn, to pass on info and to pass on knowledge
cheers[/QUOTE]

Discussing and debating yes!! but not arguing..:)..

Keep it constructive and highly debating by all means but arguing etc is not on..

Cheers for keeping it cival lads..
 
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