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Discuss Joining two cold water tanks together in loft. in the Bathrooms, Showers and Wetrooms area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. YorkshireDave

    YorkshireDave Plumber Top Contributor!!

    FYI chaps, a dead leg in legionella terms when carrying out checks as mentioned by Chris above is defined as pipework of a length of 1.5 its diameter or more. One is supposed to look, but you cannot be held liable if you don't find anything...

    One of the big issues for landlords in this arena is unused showers. It is recommended that landlords provide written instructions to tenants to run any unused shower for ten minutes each week to minimise risk.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. CHRISX

    CHRISX Active Member

    A CORRECTION TO ONE OF MY PARAGRAPHS IN THE MESSAGE ABOVE:

    The paragraph from my message above - quoted below - should have had an additional word in it which totally changes what it looks like I stated - the word is `than` and is highlighted in red.

    QUOTE:

    Hello Ric2013,

    Thanks for your message,

    I did think that You were referring to the Environment when you mentioned a `waste of resources` regarding fitting a second Floatvalve etc. and when I stated that it would be less expensive than to install that the 2 x 35mm Tank connectors & washers plus a piece of 35mm Copper tube I should have worded that as something like:

    END OF QUOTE

    Sorry if anyone misunderstood what I meant when reading the paragraph previously without the word `than` having been typed by me - that happened when I was Editing the paragraph and removed some other words meaning to add the word `then` but I obviously forgot to do that.

    Regards,

    Chris
     
  3. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Thanks for that, ChrisX.

    I had already come across that HSE statement, but it is important that people are made aware of it, so it is always good to give it exposure.

    Surely, though, that statement would not mean that your above-cited landlord has no need to bring his installations up to 'Byelaw 30'? I would say that the fact that a landlord has a duty of care to the tenants means that a risk assessment of the properties would still need to be made. Obviously this includes building structure, glazing, staircases as well as building services, but basically the property does need to be fit for habitation (if domestic).

    Bringing it all up to modern standards isn't always reasonably practicable, but (especially if work was non-compliant when originally carried out) it would seem that, in case of litigation, or if the tenant gets a housing officer involved, a landlord on the scale you mention would be deemed negligent if such 'hazards' as non-compliant CWSCs were simply ignored. Perhaps the risk is marginal, but you can see that were a plumber asked for a professional opinion, that plumber would have to say that, technically, the installation would result in non-potable water. At which point, the landlord can either slap 'not drinking water' signs everywhere (thus ensuring that the housing officer will become involved), or quietly have the work brought up to current standards, on the grounds that it may be millions, but probably isn't even a month's rent?

    Dave: what about hot runs to washing machine taps, now all but obsolete?
     
  4. CHRISX

    CHRISX Active Member


    Hello again Ric2013,

    I agree that Domestic / Rental property Plumbing systems should be `Hygienic & Safe to use` as I am sure that I have exhibited in my comments in messages on this thread.

    And although as You know UK Regulations in general cannot be imposed retrospectively - any breaches of Water Regulations or demonstrated `Risk of Legionella` which are `Risks to Health` should result in immediate Remedial works to resolve the situations.

    In order to `force` the owner of the property to comply / to carry out the remedial works might sometimes require the circumstances to be reported to the Local Water Authority or the HSE in the case of a Legionella Risk.

    In my quoted example because the Landlords have taken the stance that `Legionella Risk Assessments` MUST be carried out on all of their properties - they have imposed these Risk Assessments on their Tenants.

    They have informed them that `Legally` they are bound to allow access to their `Gas Engineers` who are carrying out the Assessments and that in the event that any part of the Plumbing systems `Fail` these Risk Assessments remedial works will be required - for example replacing the CWS Tank etc. or bringing them up to the Bylaw 30 standards.

    These `Legionella Risk Assessments` include checking for full adherence to the specifications of Bylaw 30 which include: `Part 2 Floatvalve`- `Tight fitting Tank lid with breather` - Screened Overflow - `correct Tank Insulation` etc.

    Any CWS Tank that does not adhere to these specifications would either have to be brought up to Bylaw 30 standards or if that is not possible replaced with a new CWS Tank installed to those standards.

    There will be many property`s that have a Galvanised CWS Tank - those Tanks would immediately `Fail` the Risk Assessments because there will be Rust inside them which can be a `Nutrient` for the Legionella bacteria - and obviously they would not have even a `Tight Fitting Lid` let alone any other Bylaw 30 specification items.

    The `Catch 22` situation here for that Landlord is that as You mentioned - when the `Legionella Risk Assessments` are carried out in the majority of their Rental Properties the CWS Tanks WILL be found to not adhere to the Bylaw 30 Water Regulations and will Fail the Risk Assessment also.

    The result of being made aware of the combination of these `Fails` is that the Landlords are then committed to `carrying out the necessary remedial works` - including replacing probably the majority of the CWS Tanks.

    Your comment / agreement with me that this would probably cost over a Million pounds - but that this would probably not even be a Months Rent is well made - perhaps they have taken exactly that position regarding their future expenditure on the results of the legally unnecessary `Legionella Risk Assessments` ?

    Regards,

    Chris
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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