Isolating valves and drain points

[OffshoreGas]

More often than not when I go to do any work on a domestic system there’s no way of isolating what I want to work on so end up having the drain the system. To make things worse it’s surprisingly common there’s nowhere to drain the system.

Do other people find this too and if so why do you think it’s the case?

 

[Deleted member 32524]

All the time. Laziness.

 

[OffshoreGas]

All the time. Laziness.

It does kind of make business sense too, more often than not it’s the person fitting a system who would be called to maintain. If it takes 3hrs to drain, change a part and refill rather than 1hr to just close a couple of valves and change a part you can charge significantly more.

The optimistic side of me would like to think it’s to avoid leaks but the cynical side of me says it’s maybe laziness as you say.

 

[Stu-B]

Which part are you changing?

 

[OffshoreGas]

Which part are you changing?

I’ve found in when changing zone valves, float valves, taps etc. The only part that always seems to be fitted with isolating valves are circulating pumps.

 

[Riley]

I think if you’re canny most if not all changes can be done without a full drain down. Yes isos and lever valves make things easier but unless you’re doing some sort of heating control panel with pump and valves mounted more often than not space won’t allow or the customers budget

 

[Welder]

It does kind of make business sense too, more often than not it’s the person fitting a system who would be called to maintain. If it takes 3hrs to drain, change a part and refill rather than 1hr to just close a couple of valves and change a part you can charge significantly more.

The optimistic side of me would like to think it’s to avoid leaks but the cynical side of me says it’s maybe laziness as you say.

You think 'you're' cynical? Learn
In my experience, it would be rarer than rocking horse poo for a plumber to think in such a convoluted business sense.
It is, as already explained, either 98% laziness or 2% cost. On installs where I've found it, it's always been part of a spec (so one specific estates etc). Personally, I've installed them justifying the cost of doing so by explaining how the next occurance of a drain is far quicker & cheaper...
Just don't forget to:
- coat the washer face, when it's reinstalled after soldering, with some silicone grease so it doesn't stick quite so easily
- nip it up so that it doesn't leak at 3 bar only. If you wind it up you'll not be able to get the bu66er out.

 

[townfanjon]

The majority of plumbers , not all , may do a one off job and will probably never return so they simply cant be ar*ed .
Anything I instal , I always think how do I maintain this if I or someone else has to come back

 

[OffshoreGas]

The majority of plumbers , not all , may do a one off job and will probably never return so they simply cant be ar*ed .
Anything I instal , I always think how do I maintain this if I or someone else has to come back

I’m surprised at you’re experience of jobs largely being one offs. Possibly a good explanation for it.

 

[Welder]

The majority of plumbers , not all , may do a one off job and will probably never return so they simply cant be ar*ed .
Anything I instal , I always think how do I maintain this if I or someone else has to come back

Not Yorkshire plumbers OBVs !!

 

[Welder]

I’m surprised at you’re experience of jobs largely being one offs. Possibly a good explanation for it.

Did you miss an emoji ?

 

[Deleted member 32524]

It's the that will do attitude and laziness of price jobs. Then lack of investment from home owner. Most when you say give you the impression it a great idea to add isolators and a drain off point, but never do jack about it.

 

[Rob Foster]

I’ve found in when changing zone valves, float valves, taps etc. The only part that always seems to be fitted with isolating valves are circulating pumps.

then the gate valves are seized

 

[Rob Foster]

plumbing is largely unregulated
so there is little standardisation
anybody can play, and do,it as badly or as well as their price or whim takes them...even on new builds ..which can be worse
centralheatking

 

[Best]

Once you have an agreed price with the customer, then every part you use comes out of your potential profit, - so greed is also a factor

 

[Stu-B]

More things to leak, the quality of parts has gone downhill as the suppliers and manufacturers compete. Pump valves leak when you use them, gate valves stem snap, isolator valves weep,

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t

 

[Burger]

I’ve found in when changing zone valves, float valves, taps etc. The only part that always seems to be fitted with isolating valves are circulating pumps.

Float valves to any cistern is a water regulation, so hope you fit them? A lot of things like taps are just considered good practice

 

[Rob Foster]

Once you have an agreed price with the customer, then every part you use comes out of your potential profit, - so greed is also a factor

and nowadays quality is not an issue,just price and speed. and the churn is a factor, churn is loads of newbies coming into the market undercutting and going bust to,be replaced by more failures and it goes on
centralheatking

 

[OffshoreGas]

Float valves to any cistern is a water regulation, so hope you fit them? A lot of things like taps are just considered good practice

I tend to fit them anywhere I can.

I’m not sure you’re right on the water regs, my understanding is they “should” be fitted to float valves. Where “should” is used in regulations it’s considered advisory rather than mandatory.

 

[Burger]

I tend to fit them anywhere I can.

I’m not sure you’re right on the water regs, my understanding is they “should” be fitted to float valves. Where “should” is used in regulations it’s considered advisory rather than mandatory.

They use the word “shall”, I take that to mean mandatory.

 

[OffshoreGas]

Must have updated it since the copy I’ve got. Agree, shall is mandatory, the note from 2016 certainly says “should”.

 

[Burger]

Which note is that? Only when I was in college learning the water regs, I remember that when they were introduced in 1999?

 

[WC1]

Pretty much as soon as you're in the door you make the assessment- lack of drain offs / isos and also an over use of flexi - pan and tap connectors and you just know it probably was probably never installed with due care. Same when you go to do a drainage job and there's insufficient rodding eyes and access...
I say 50% laziness and 50% greed - as much in the cost of materials as the time cost of installation . My ethos - make it easy for the next guy - hopefully it'll be me (fortunately it usually is)

 

[OffshoreGas]

Which note is that? Only when I was in college learning the water regs, I remember that when they were introduced in 1999?

From WRAS not legislation.gov but you’d think they were a fairly reputable source.

Bottom paragraph

 

[Riley]

Wasn’t really a need to look for an alternative to prove a point was there

 

[OffshoreGas]

Wasn’t really a need to look for an alternative to prove a point was there

It was a response to a direct question:

“Which note was that?”??

 

[OffshoreGas]

Pretty much as soon as you're in the door you make the assessment- lack of drain offs / isos and also an over use of flexi - pan and tap connectors and you just know it probably was probably never installed with due care. Same when you go to do a drainage job and there's insufficient rodding eyes and access...
I say 50% laziness and 50% greed - as much in the cost of materials as the time cost of installation . My ethos - make it easy for the next guy - hopefully it'll be me (fortunately it usually is)

It’s nice to be able to stand back and be proud of the work you’ve done. Admitting it’s not always easy when 10 different people could have worked on over the years.

I’m not sure the Part P route has really improved the quality of electrical work in the U.K. so not convinced outlawing DIY plumbing would make much difference either.

 

[Rob Foster]

From WRAS not legislation.gov but you’d think they were a fairly reputable source.

Bottom paragraph


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unfortuately Wras has no legal remit in law ..its a code that I am happy to work with but others do not...centralheatking

 

[Burger]

From WRAS not legislation.gov but you’d think they were a fairly reputable source.

Bottom paragraph


View attachment 38397

Sorry, but the only thing I see about “should” is, it should be fitted with an inlet valve capable of shutting off the flow at a set level, eg a float operated valve (ballcock/ballvalve for the old school generation ).

 

[Burger]

unfortuately Wras has no legal remit in law ..its a code that I am happy to work with but others do not...centralheatking

Is it? I know if you are working to it you are considered to be working within the law. The uk’s 26 water companies are subscribed to it. The water undertaker is the one who enforces the water regs. Like you say others do not abide by it, more fool them and the people who employ them, what I do know is that the water undertaker can prosecute the homeowner also for non-compliance

 

[OffshoreGas]

Sorry, but the only thing I see about “should” is, it should be fitted with an inlet valve capable of shutting off the flow at a set level, eg a float operated valve (ballcock/ballvalve for the old school generation ).

Sorry, page 2 of the same document from WRAS. I completely agree the gov.uk site is the authoritative but I’d saved this guide when looking at this in the past.

I fit valves everywhere I think one could be of use but so far I’ve not been doing this for profit.

 

[Burger]

Ah I see it clearly now, and see how you would think that is correct,as you say,a reputable source? what they could also mean is that service valves are needed, but adjacent to the valve? Or am I giving them the benefit of the doubt?