Is this work acceptable (pics)? Central heating system

[tamz]

Sorry but if you have gone to all the trouble of replacing most of the pipe work and rads in the property, why would the plumber on site not suggest / recomend upgrading to two pipe system?

That one would have been a no brainer.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I wouldn't just query the plumbing here i would query the quality of the build that is going on as well

 

[kay-jay]

A one pipe system is completely unacceptable imo :thumbdown:

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ADM360]

Would a 1 pipe system work?? I don't recall speedfit having a swept Tee in there range, also the restrictions in new TRV's would slow the flow to the rads as well as the small bore of the Lockshield! Also it down't look much like there is a gradual rise or fall on any of the pipe to assist in circulation, (I realise with a pump this is negated to a certain extent!!)
As for bury fittings in screed!! Ask the plumber which build reg allows that!!

 

[alunmorris]

Would a 1 pipe system work?? I don't recall speedfit having a swept Tee in there range, also the restrictions in new TRV's would slow the flow to the rads as well as the small bore of the Lockshield! Also it down't look much like there is a gradual rise or fall on any of the pipe to assist in circulation, (I realise with a pump this is negated to a certain extent!!)
As for bury fittings in screed!! Ask the plumber which build reg allows that!!

I feel ill. I asked if the TRVs were designed for 1 pipe. He said yes, they were 'universal'. He has made all the rads either bigger or two panel, but this sounds a waste if we then have to restrict the flow in some of them to balance the system. Even the rad in the hall, where the system thermostat is, has a TRV. What's the point of that?
Why didn't the plumber suggest a two pipe system seeing as most of the plumbing was replaced? We could have had smaller rads or kept some of the originals to offset the extra labour/pipes.
I am getting a trusted plumber to look at the system. We didn't use him for the job since the builder wanted to use his regular guys.

 

[ADM360]

Sorry didn't mean to ruin your day!! But I think these issues need to be sorted now before to much more work is done!!
If the TRV's are suitable for a 1 pipe, then they would work on any system!! But the ones in the photo look like standard merchant style TRV's, so when he say's that they are universal he probably means bi-directional as nearly all TRV's are theses days means they can be retro fitted to either end of the rad!

This is all supposition as without seeing the install I couldn't give a proper opinion!!
But looking at the way the install has been put in I can't think the builder went all out on the trouble and expense of full bore TRV's for one pipe system!

Maybe if you ask on here there might be someone near by who could/would pop round and give you a on site appraisal /professional opinion.
I'd be happy to if your near by, South Somerset!!

 

[jtsplumbing]

Are you sure a Plumber did this ?? if this is his regular Plumber he needs to think about replaceing him ! you need to get someone in to have a look at this system, is it all 15mm pipe ? and are you replaceing boiler ? think I would be holding back payment untill this gets sorted.

 

[fuzzy]

It was and still is a one pipe system. I was advised to replace all the old rads. Most of the ground floor pipes have now been renewed. When I saw the corroded old copper pipes I asked for plastic where set in concrete, which the plumber misunderstood as pipes everywhere to be plastic. I did not know that you are to keep plastic fittings accessible. In fact I later asked for the downstairs pipes to be re-located to be behind the skirting since we had to dry line the lounge walls. The builder agreed but today concreted them in. I was, er, surprised to see how this looked:
https://8fnd1q.sn2.livefilestore.co...I3dQDbn3mAFuP7a4umFZ8_9s/plumbing5.jpg?psid=1

There is no insulation on the pipes under floorboards Surely this wastes heat? I have tired of challenging the builder - he now just replies "it's fine", or "you never clip pipes under floorboards" and "plastic pipes never go wrong".

thats soooo poor mate, sorry to tell you this. plastic expands at an alarming rate, imagine what will happen if restricted under the concrete, id say it needs to come up and be done properly. pipes should be in a purpose made duct

 

[fuzzy]

Got to say somthing here matey ,first thing is that speed fit used on combi boilers is a no no because the fitting draw air in which in turn reduces the pressure in the system. Really you should have used HEP or polly plumb(the cheaper HEP).
Secondly someone once told me that if you connect copper into a plastic fitting (HEP,Speedfit,polly plumb) the copper over time corrodes the rubber washer inside the fitting causing it to leak.
For me it copper everytime. Copper look class when you have finished if you know how to use it.
Then again time is money!

not sure i follow, a combi boiler draws in air through speedfit fittings? whats the connection here?

 

[alunmorris]

Are you sure a Plumber did this ?? if this is his regular Plumber he needs to think about replaceing him ! you need to get someone in to have a look at this system, is it all 15mm pipe ? and are you replaceing boiler ? think I would be holding back payment untill this gets sorted.

The plumber has a van with his business name on it but I've just searched yell.com and no sign of him. Bugger. I wondered how someone so poor would get work except via his builder mate.
There is about 5m of 22mm pipe from the boiler then 15mm.
The latest FUBAR is in the new en suite. The plasterboard is up but the shower mixer we bought a week ago is still in the box. We have discussed the mixer about 3 times with the builder.

 

[SimonG]

Oh dear. I take it that this builder was the cheapest estimate for the works? Them TRV's are not for one pipe systems, I just hope for your sake this 'plumber' hasn't touched any of the gas work!!!!!

 

[alunmorris]

Oh dear. I take it that this builder was the cheapest estimate for the works? Them TRV's are not for one pipe systems, I just hope for your sake this 'plumber' hasn't touched any of the gas work!!!!!

No, he was recommended by my partner's son, who does tiling for him. He said "He's good, he'll look after you."

Off topic but I have just found that that dry lining he has done in the large lounge (£2k + VAT + plumber + electrician + painter) is done without regard to insulation despite the Victorian house having no cavity wall. He used dot & dab and 12.5mm plasterboard straight onto the brick. I asked why not use battens to get a bigger air gap at least - "air gap will be OK". I have just found you can buy insulated plasterboard. Why did he not even ask us if we wanted to pay extra for good insulation? I am furious. It does not even seem to comply with regulation L1B. Why the hell am I having to read building regs?

 

[fuzzy]

No, he was recommended by my partner's son, who does tiling for him. He said "He's good, he'll look after you."

Off topic but I have just found that that dry lining he has done in the large lounge (£2k + VAT + plumber + electrician + painter) is done without regard to insulation despite the Victorian house having no cavity wall. He used dot & dab and 12.5mm plasterboard straight onto the brick. I asked why not use battens to get a bigger air gap at least - "air gap will be OK". I have just found you can buy insulated plasterboard. Why did he not even ask us if we wanted to pay extra for good insulation? I am furious. It does not even seem to comply with regulation L1B. Why the hell am I having to read building regs?

your right, you shouldnt have to, thats his job

 

[alunmorris]

The plumber we've know for years played the devil's advocate when I spoke to him - no clips is fine, no insulation is fine, speedfit in concrete is fine, no ducting over the plastic in concrete is fine, not recommending a two pipe system - well he'd look like he was trying to get extra work. One pipes can work fine.
I guess he does not want to get involved in this.

 

[mountainman]

This sounds like a job Dom and Mel might be interested in televising.
I feel sorry for you in your predicament Alun.
There are so many great tradesmen out there, it's a shame one of them didn't get to do your job.

 

[mountainman]

The plumber we've know for years played the devil's advocate when I spoke to him - no clips is fine, no insulation is fine, speedfit in concrete is fine, no ducting over the plastic in concrete is fine, not recommending a two pipe system - well he'd look like he was trying to get extra work. One pipes can work fine.
I guess he does not want to get involved in this.

Sorry mate that is all BS, every word of it.
Made all the worse as you've known the plumber for years.

 

[wheeto]

Sorry mate that is all BS, every word of it.
Made all the worse as you've known the plumber for years.

I agree completely. I expect you occasionally have to "bend" one of those rules, but all of them? In one job? Where doing it properly looks, from the photos, like a feasible option? No.

 

[fuzzy]

id dig it up and do it properly mate. forget the builder, you may end up out of pocket as youll have to pay twice but its worth it to get the job done right

 

[Koogatubac]

Ive worked with speedfit for a number of years. Personally HATE plastics, however everyones using them and wants it for ease and price.

Regarding fittings i havnt seen people state is they have a small tolerance before they leak. Think its 10/15 degree then they will leak.

Hate the stuff and hate new plumbing. Prefer the old fashioned way even though im a 'new age' plumber. Cant beat soldering and copper!!

 

[alunmorris]

Oh dear. I take it that this builder was the cheapest estimate for the works? Them TRV's are not for one pipe systems, I just hope for your sake this 'plumber' hasn't touched any of the gas work!!!!!

The TRVs are altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC. Are these suitable for one pipe?

The plumber has finished. The system is leaking in 4 places and was at 0.6bar when I got there. One rad did not heat - needed bleeding. A job for the client these days.

 

[Phil]

The TRVs are altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC. Are these suitable for one pipe?

The plumber has finished. The system is leaking in 4 places and was at 0.6bar when I got there. One rad did not heat - needed bleeding. A job for the client these days.

He's not finished then, do all rads get hot?

Also on the subject of dry lining around the shower mixer valve, is he planning of tanking/waterproofing this or is he tiling straight on standard £6.50 a sheet plasterboard? if so I see another disaster looming.

 

[alunmorris]

Also on the subject of dry lining around the shower mixer valve, is he planning of tanking/waterproofing this or is he tiling straight on standard £6.50 a sheet plasterboard? if so I see another disaster looming.

Unless he is so skilled he can tile with a bargepole in his mitt, he will not be tiling. Thanks for the tip. I shall do it myself.

 

[Phil]

Unless he is so skilled he can tile with a bargepole in his mitt, he will not be tiling. Thanks for the tip. I shall do it myself.

Has he not quoted for tiling?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Plumber has a van with name on it ! any phone number ?? how meny times do you see these shaby old vans with somthing on the side claiming to be somthing !! As the old saying go's , It say's whisky on buses , but they dont sell it !

 

[Carl86]

altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC - I dont think these are even Bi-directional never mind having to cope with that one piper thats been chucked in, refering to the manfactures installation instructions.

'The Straight ECOCAL ® valve is specifically designed for installation on the flow pipe only. The straight lockshield valve is specificaly designed for installation on the return pipe only'

 

[Dannypipe]

altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC - I dont think these are even Bi-directional never mind having to cope with that one piper thats been chucked in, refering to the manfactures installation instructions.

'The Straight ECOCAL ® valve is specifically designed for installation on the flow pipe only. The straight lockshield valve is specificaly designed for installation on the return pipe only'

It gets worse and worse!!

 

[Phil]

This is unbelievable, wrong in so many ways.

 

[Blake]

Print this off and get your builder to read it:

http://www.johnguest.co.uk/Home/literature-downloads/UK-Literature/DIY-Installation-Manual.aspx

Manufacturer clearly states not to bury in concrete and to clip to prevent stress. I would then ask him to leave and get someone in who is competent otherwise the longer it goes on the more it will cost you to put right what is wrong.

 

[alunmorris]

<pic of speedfit half in concrete>

This is unbelievable, wrong in so many ways.

I just don't understand why they didn't simply blank off an inch either side of fitting to leave it concrete free. That would not cause a problem with the carpet fitting.
Will I have to drain the system to drop the rad to paint behind?

 

[Blake]

Yeah you will need to isolate the valves both ends, drain and remove rad.

 

[alunmorris]

altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC - I dont think these are even Bi-directional never mind having to cope with that one piper thats been chucked in, refering to the manfactures installation instructions.

'The Straight ECOCAL ® valve is specifically designed for installation on the flow pipe only. The straight lockshield valve is specificaly designed for installation on the return pipe only'

The angled ones used are bi-directional.
I phoned Altecnic - they say the Ecocal TRVs are suitable for one pipe use.

 

[Carl86]

The angled ones used are bi-directional.
I phoned Altecnic - they say the Ecocal TRVs are suitable for one pipe use.

Ah I just typed in 200445 LTC, they must have the same PDF file for all the valves and stipulate only the straight angle ones are specified for a flow pipe and return pipe for TRV/Locksheild. On the whole there so many things wrong before water even hits these valves I think thats the least of your worries sadly, with the way that speed fits been buried in concrete as well as other issues.

Still cant understand why a one pipe system has been installed either if every thing was ripped out to renew, only time I have botherd with them was ripping them out to replace for a two pipe system one dedicated to return and the other flow. Its like me scrapping a lada ive had for years(if it even lasted that long doubt it lol) then buying another lada, when id be far better updating to something more reliable and economical in the long run but with the way this has been installed no matter what was put in its just a mish mash of problems so you are always going to be sitting in a lada. I do hope you are able to sort this problem out with the people who put this in alunmorris.

Mind i meen no disrespect when I compare this install to a lada car, at the end of the day this is your home and you deserve things to be done properly if you have parted with cash especcialy if this was based on reccomendations that you trusted.

 

[AWheating]

Got to say somthing here matey ,first thing is that speed fit used on combi boilers is a no no because the fitting draw air in which in turn reduces the pressure in the system. Really you should have used HEP or polly plumb(the cheaper HEP).
Secondly someone once told me that if you connect copper into a plastic fitting (HEP,Speedfit,polly plumb) the copper over time corrodes the rubber washer inside the fitting causing it to leak.
For me it copper everytime. Copper look class when you have finished if you know how to use it.
Then again time is money!

Speedfit is fine on a combi if fitted correctly and barrier pipe is used as with other manufactures. Poly Plumb and Hep20 are both good alternatives to speedfit, me personally think poly plumb is the better of these two makes. As regards copper corroding rubber o rings i would ignore everything that person tells you in the future LOL.

 

[AWheating]

one pipe trv's cost around £40-£60 each they are very common in commerical installs as they still fit one pipe systems in these types on buildings, they have a full flow rate through the valve to work on a one pipe correctly. This said standard trv can work on a one pipe but not so well and can cause alot of balancing issues.

an orginal one pipe system will work fine on a new boiler but if its been altered or replace it should be upgraded to a 2 pipe system especially if no sweep tees are installed. The plastic pipework should be supported every 300mm under the floor to stop undue stress on pipe and fittings as per manufactures instructions. The heating pipework does not need to be lagged but its good practice to.

there should als0 be no plastic fittings in the screeded floor.

 

[petercj]

Like it or not, Speed Fit is the pipework of the future because of: a/ the ever increasing rise in the price of copper; b/ the ease of fitting - which requires less skill; and c/, the time saved over the use of copper: being three factors that make it a cheaper option.

Seems to me (and this thread is a good example) that Speed Fit has got a bad name in some quarters because it's sometimes used by people who really don't know what they are doing. The fact that it's easy to use makes it readily available to misuse and abuse by people who shouldn't be doing the job in the first place. Apparently, the misuse of pipe without a barrier got the product off to a bad start in the first place. The grab washers used in Speed Fit have been used for many, many years in other areas of engineering, and they are an absolute swine to get off when it's not possible to use a release tool.

As far as I can see, the true test of Speed Fit will be the longevity of the O rings - the biggest risk being that market competition will lead to lowering the quality of them in some brands, which will be an absolute nightmare for the technology generally.

Like so many things over the past 30 years, advances in technology lead to de-skilling and horrific cases of incorrect application, but it's not always the fault of the product itself.

The term apprenticeship has become meaningless in the UK, and can refer to a few weeks training in twiddling your thumbs and shelf-stacking as a form of cheap labour. The risks associated with working with gas, and electricty plus water, have probably served to hold back the changes in the related industries more than others, some of which have seen massive de-skilling through advanced specialisation, for example in the motor trade, where things like brake pads/shoes, exhausts, tyres, various accessories, and servicing, are now more likely to be done by fitters with limited skills, than by fully trained mechanics. Even things like engine tuning and diagnostics have become so technical and specialised that some conventionally trained mechanics struggle to understand it.

More and more products made using cheap labour abroad, and the increasing search for cheap labour at home, is the way of the future, unfortunately.

But fear not folks, we now have Dave Cameron and his trusty friend Lord Coe to show us the way forward!!!

Your kids may not know the difference between a nut, a bolt, and a screw, but as long as they can throw a javelin, they'll never starve!

Time to put the kettle on me thinks!