How long would it realistically take you to...

[Ric2013]

. . .
park van
chat with homeowner and find out exactly where he wants his towel rail fitted
get out tools, put some floor runners in strategic positions
fit towel rail to plasterboard on top of brick wall (towel rail is slightly twisted)
run system and check it all works
electrically isolate boiler
drain radiator in other room and remove leaking valve tail, drain enough water from the sealed system to relieve pressure, and refit radiator valve to valve tail
fit valve tails with hemp and paste
remove two screws holding plywood floor section and lift
chisel top of joist slightly to locate pipe shroud in correct alignment
drill holes in floor in correct position
put first panel section down and refit screws
pull 10mm tails (already there) Speedsh*t up through floor
slip pipe shrouds over the Speedsh*t, then compression nut and 3-piece reducing set
fit Speedsh*t to the towel rail valves
put inhibitor in radiator previously drained, and partially fill it
bring system up to pressure, fire it up, and bleed all emitters
inhibitor sticker on boiler with my name on it
throttle back a couple of over-flowed radiators at lockshield end (because I'm nice like that)
check everything is working
clear up and put tools back in van

Because it took me over 4 hours, which I felt was ridiculous. Homeowner very pleased with work and, after I got home, he got home and saw the job and sent me a text to say he was pleased, but I felt I was really slow. How long do older/more experienced plumbers take to do this, and what might you expect to be able to charge (if that's not too much to ask)? Luckily it was a priced job at £100 plus materials so no agonising for me at least.

Thanks,

Ric

 

[Harvest Fields]

Evening mate. I would allow a morning. But I take my time and I am in the Midlands so cannot speak for the Essex area. But I would be charging at least half a days labour. Which is a lot more then £100.00.

 

[Ric2013]

Really! You mean I'm still undercharging?

 

[Harvest Fields]

£25.00 an hour. YES. From what I can tell about London and outside area prices. But really you need one of the lads from down by you to comment.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yea half a day for me also and 100 plus materials

I would try and stay around 25-30 an hour for a single tradesperson

 

[ShaunCorbs]

£25.00 an hour. YES. From what I can tell about London and outside area prices. But really you need one of the lads from down by you to comment.

Problem is I bet there are loads of plumbers working for less than that who are willing to do it for less than you but less of a standard of workmanship

It's a loosing battle in some places

These websites don't help

 

[Harvest Fields]

Problem is I bet there are loads of plumbers working for less than that who are willing to do it for less than you but less of a standard of workmanship

It's a loosing battle in some places

These websites don't help

View attachment 30824

Unfortunately you are correct mate. Just quoting from my own opinion as a sole trader. In my eyes you get what you pay for. But I also understand that no one else is looking through my eyes.

 

[heliotrope]

You have not listed tea drinking time.

Very important is tea drinking.

Er, you did get tea didn't you?

 

[townfanjon]

4 hours is not ridiculous at all pal , nothing wrong with that . As the guys above have said its way Toooooooooo cheap pal , plumbing is a true skill .

 

[Best]

You didn't include your travel time?
Even if job was fairly local to you, - say a couple miles, that I bet could add half an hour return journey through traffic.
I think 4 hours sounds quick enough.
Remember this, - any small jobs, like fitting a tap washer, will realistically lose you an hour. You won't do them much quicker by the time you have to speak to the customer, get tools from van, get to an isolating valve, etc. Plus travel time.
Anything above a small job, like those series of jobs you did, will be half a day. And if you have to do 5 hours, it would be advisable to charge a day rate as the day is ruined. (Unless you have a local tap washer to replace)
A lot of the extra time we spend on jobs is due to the bad workmanship or materials done by others and is no reflection on our plumbing ability.

 

[oz-plumber]

Simple way to work out your rates as a sole trader.

Work out what it would cost you to employ someone on full time wages.
Add 50% to that rate and that should be your hourly rate.

Anyone who employs someone full time would know that would be the minimum you would have to charge them out at to adequately cover costs

 

[WaterTight]

Customers don't have a clue how long things take. Don't look that gift horse in the mouth. Go at whatever pace leaves you relaxed, thinking and planning clearly and enjoying doing your work well.
£100 for 4 hours has got to be too cheap anywhere in the UK. Where I live (south east) you wouldn't often be turned away charging that for 1.5 hours.

 

[king of pipes]

I would have charged for the full day regardless of how long it took your in business to make a profit not just cover your wages . kop

 

[Ric2013]

Trouble is I grew up in a household where there were never two brass farthings to scrape together and I forget what a normal person deems to be an essential standard of living, hence what I should be charging just in case I ever end up with a family to support. Thank you so much for a reality check.

I distinctly remember the head to head Brown vs Cameron vs Clegg and the mutual expression my mother and I pulled at one another when Nick Clegg spoke about normal people earning just £24,000 a year. I don't think I'd know what to do with that much income lol.

 

[Best]

I distinctly remember the head to head Brown vs Cameron vs Clegg and the mutual expression my mother and I pulled at one another when Nick Clegg spoke about normal people earning just £24,000 a year. I don't think I'd know what to do with that much income lol.

I am same as you. I listen to wage disputes where it is said that teachers only earn average of 40k and junior nurses salary only 25k or so.
I think of it this way, - would you say you are worth the same salary as a postman? Plumbing is much more skilled that a Postmans job. Then add your other costs, - van, tools, pension, insurance, holidays time, etc. Then you really should have profit if self employed
To earn £20k you would probably need to bring in £40k.

 

[Ric2013]

I reckon a postman's job is harder work though. But at the end of the day, the postman doesn't have all the hassle and, as you say, cost, of self employment.

Not entirely convinced about the van argument making £160 a day too little, as HMRC makes that £0.45 a mile, which seems to be more than my van actually costs me, but I bet my postman isn't online right now on UKpostmensforums trying to learn how to do his job better.

 

[Best]

I reckon a postman's job is harder work though. But at the end of the day, the postman doesn't have all the hassle and, as you say, cost, of self employment.

Maybe a postman isn't the best job in the world and I am sure it isn't very nice working in the winter or delivering to high rise buildings. But they get a decent constant wage, don't need much skill and don't need costs of running a business. They won't get emergency calls about their post either.
Just using it as a comparison to a Plumber. Look around you at the average Joe with a 9 to 5 job and I bet they are better paid than many plumbers. It is shocking what many pen pushers are paid

 

[Best]

I just reread your post. You think a postmans job is harder than plumbing? What sort of easy plumbing do you do?
Sure any idiot that can just about read and walk could be a postie. Sorry to all the post persons who might read this.

 

[king of pipes]

Being self employed is a balancing act there are jobs you charge more for and bread and butter jobs which keep you ticking over dont under estimate your worth i would up your day rate a bit bud. Regards kop

 

[mfgs]

4 hours is about what I would expect for that job, you should however be charging more than £100 to do it.

 

[Ric2013]

I accept the consensus that I am undercharging. It doesn't help the industry out or lead to a consensus of quality work. I shall have to deal with this matter.

I had thought £160 was a reasonable day rate for someone with a lot of theory, but a bit slow at the practical, as I was trying to ensure my cost per job remained reasonable. I had thought a more experienced plumber would have done what I did in 3 hours, perhaps less. Looks like not, thank you for telling me.

I was just defending the postman, as going to a sorting office, sorting papers under time pressure, dashing off for a delivery run, not wearing a helmet because old ladies won't open the door if you do, but being at risk of the sack if you don't wear one and walking up and down for hours in the rain at a minum speed of x is vital to get the post delivered, and that that job should be properly paid and appreciated as well. Hell, you don't even get a smart uniform any more:

Which hasn't been the case since successive governments have slowly undermined the security of postal workers (and now sold the whole former GPO off). After all, fat lot of good having a surgeon to operate on you if the cleaner isn't there to make the equipment sterile, the plumber hasn't given us safe water, and the postman hasn't delivered the antibiotics: we are equally important.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You should be on 250 a day 150 for half a day

 

[Ric2013]

Oh... Well, then I could pay someone to rack my van out properly and I'd be quicker. I've been meaning to do it myself since February 2016.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Oh... Well, then I could pay someone to rack my van out properly and I'd be quicker. I've been meaning to do it myself since February 2016.

that doesn't help you just buy more stuff to fill your nice racking one thing I did is lights well worth it

 

[Ric2013]

I've only got a Citroen Berlingo type van. It would just be nice to be able to get to my pipe fittings without having to lean over a box of handsaws, rags, drain trays, and scourers (for painted pipes), or have to lean over that box, plus two stacked boxes of pipe fittings, to get to my bag of PPE, drills, or hotbox.

On second thoughts, my tool storage makes no sense whatsover. But I know where everything is, at least.

I'm just thinking - why is my hemp in my toolbox, but my paste in the hotbox? Perhaps so I can put Water Hawk in a capilliary fitting...?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I use fatmax organisers very good might grab a pic tomorrow

 

[Ric2013]

Sounds better than jamming the van floor solid with stuff so things don't move I'd like to be able to crouch in there when it's raining and I'm trying to find an obscure washer rather than be bent over on the rain. Also sounds better than what I'm using for storage. I'll post a pic another day, if you promise not to take the p---?

 

[Harvest Fields]

I use fatmax organisers very good might grab a pic tomorrow

ShaunCorbs is right mate I have about 10 of these in my van and makes the washers, fittings and screws problems go away. Mine are not quite as good quality as Shaun's but they do the job and b&q have a pack of 2 on half price sale every now and again
Edited due to forgetting to attach the blooming picture

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Can't be worse than mine atm

 

[Best]

I am sorry I mentioned postmen now!
I will pick on some other profession as a reference comparison.

 

[king of pipes]

£250 a day every day is a bit optimistic but it can be earned on some jobs £180-£220 is more realistic in our area but if you can get then good for you . cheers kop

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Mine atm will pull one out later for you

 

[Ric2013]

I will pick on some other profession as a reference comparison.

Bankers?

Shaun - what's that piece of wood clipped to the rack with pipe clips for?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Bankers?

Shaun - what's that piece of wood clipped to the rack with pipe clips for?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

don't know it's this magic thing that never dies like the one trigger had