Search the forum,

Discuss How far can a Oil pump draw from tank in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Inverness

Plumbers Arms member
Plumber
Gas Engineer
Messages
710
to the oil heads.

I'll be replacing an oil boiler in a weeks time. At the moment the oil line approximately 30meters from one end of the house right along to the other, bungalow.its feed is 10mm microbore.
ill be moving the boiler about 1meter more from where it is will this be an issue for the oil line?
When the oil tank is full, the oil level inside the tiger loop is about 10mm high?
Do you get 15mm microbore?
 
Sizing is different in oil. By going to 15mm you would cause more issues and if anything dropping down to 8mm would be better but stick with 10mm.

30 mtrs is nothing really and a lot is done by gravity or in your case the tiger loop.
 
30 metres is not too extreme length really.
The Tigerloop is an aerator device and designed to allow oil tank to be at a lower level than oil burner without causing problems.
Important that the Tigerloop instructions are adhered to regarding pipe sizing and also no high spots in oil pipe. As Millsy points out, the oil pipe on a lower oil tank should not be oversized in diameter.

I would be concerned more about how the original oil line is installed and the condition of it. Best to warn your customer in writing that the old oil line would be better to be replaced unless it has been properly installed (including sleeved) and also if it still remains in perfect condition, internally and externally.
 
You need to understand Physics. You need smaller not larger pipe. I would replace with 8mm. It's all in the OFTEC books and you should have covered it when you did your OFTEC course! If the flow is under gravity, then there is no issue with the distance. If under suction, then you will need a tigerloop. If under suction, then it's absolutely vital that flared fittings are used and not compression (but you should be of course using flared fittings not compression for everything on oil lines anyway)
 
You need to understand Physics. You need smaller not larger pipe. I would replace with 8mm. It's all in the OFTEC books and you should have covered it when you did your OFTEC course! If the flow is under gravity, then there is no issue with the distance. If under suction, then you will need a tigerloop. If under suction, then it's absolutely vital that flared fittings are used and not compression (but you should be of course using flared fittings not compression for everything on oil lines anyway)
Where have you been mate???
 
Can you tell me the reasons to why flared fittings seem to better than the standard compression fittings for oil?
 
Can you tell me the reasons to why flared fittings seem to better than the standard compression fittings for oil?

Good question. I think basically they make a better seal and not as subject to movement to risk leaks.
But will let the others say what they know
 
Alright, well I always use compression and use brass sleeves with ptfe and heldight never had a leak and clip any pipework tight to a wall.
 
Flared fittings have only a single sealing face whereas compression fittings have two, either of which can cause a leak. Both types work fine if done correctly, but flared are generally more reliable, hence their use on brake lines.
 
If under suction, then it's absolutely vital that flared fittings are used and not compression (but you should be of course using flared fittings not compression for everything on oil lines anyway)

It's not vital that you use flares fittings using compression with the correct inserts and using the correct paste is an approved method of jointing.
 
Soft copper (which is non annealed unlike Table X) is subject to creep. Even with inserts fitted. It's best practice to use flared fittings as the copper is pinched between two brass faces and can't creep. Compression fittings must not be used on high pressure and safety critical systems as they are less than reliable. Though it is acceptable to use compression fittings on oil lines, it is a much inferior method and I am surprised that people are still using them.
 
You need to understand Physics. You need smaller not larger pipe. I would replace with 8mm. It's all in the OFTEC books and you should have covered it when you did your OFTEC course! If the flow is under gravity, then there is no issue with the distance. If under suction, then you will need a tigerloop. If under suction, then it's absolutely vital that flared fittings are used and not compression (but you should be of course using flared fittings not compression for everything on oil lines anyway)

There is nothing saying compression and inserts are not to be used, infact they are very common and pretty bullet proof if away from potential damage or knocks.
Yes flared is the better option.
 
We use compression fittings all the time on high pressure and safety critical systems, in the oil & gas industry.

Proper high pressure stuff like Butech is conical faces though.

Generally flared/comical fittings seal
Better because they have a greater sealing face. Also with swaged fittings you’re limited by the rigidity of the pipe how much force can be applied to the olive.
 
There is nothing saying compression and inserts are not to be used, infact they are very common and pretty bullet proof if away from potential damage or knocks.
Yes flared is the better option.
I find all this very interesting and amusing as I think you do? Where did that idea come from re swaged or flared fittings? I've done a few amatuer brake lines when I rebuilt my Land Rover series and feel confident they will not leak re the joints. It past the MOT all those years ago and all the years in between but does not need one now! Been using all sorts of joints but not soldered as that is not compliant on oil lines for obvious reasons but silver soldered is! Where would I have been if compression fittings were not compliant on oil lines 50 years ago and all the years in between till about 10 years ago? I have 'screwed a few'......... joints that is as well and they have not had a mention yet! and we all know they are compliant as well as compression fittings! I'm sorry to be a kill joy to all those who think that compression fitting are a no no on oil lines but they really are good and compliant..... I know full well I would have been in deep fertilizer if they had not been around forever. Well all of my dirty oily life anyway........ LOL. I thought this thread was about Tigerloop[s?
 
I find all this very interesting and amusing as I think you do? Where did that idea come from re swaged or flared fittings? I've done a few amatuer brake lines when I rebuilt my Land Rover series and feel confident they will not leak re the joints. It past the MOT all those years ago and all the years in between but does not need one now! Been using all sorts of joints but not soldered as that is not compliant on oil lines for obvious reasons but silver soldered is! Where would I have been if compression fittings were not compliant on oil lines 50 years ago and all the years in between till about 10 years ago? I have 'screwed a few'... joints that is as well and they have not had a mention yet! and we all know they are compliant as well as compression fittings! I'm sorry to be a kill joy to all those who think that compression fitting are a no no on oil lines but they really are good and compliant... I know full well I would have been in deep fertilizer if they had not been around forever. Well all of my dirty oily life anyway.... LOL. I thought this thread was about Tigerloop[s?

Nearly all joints I come across on oil lines are compression without inserts. They do weep easily if pipe gets moved.
The main problem with the modern 8mm and 10mm copper is it is too soft for compression joints. The old 3/8” soft copper was a lot harder pipe and compression joints on it were definitely better sealing. Brakes pipes often were same I think.
 
As WHPES above has said if using gravity then the length is almost irrelevant but if it's a really long run then up sizing will give a better flow rate due to less internal resistance. If the line is under suction, hence the term suction line using a tiger loop then its maximum length is around 300ft and up about 13. The longer and higher the lift the greater the suction head and its total suction head should not exceed suction capacity of the pump. Yes using 15mm will decrease the total but it also presents other problems ie, it's harder to suck up a larger diameter which can cause gases to form resulting in foaming in the loop but also you need to ensure you have the flow through the loop to prevent loss of siphon effect. All this can be found it tigerloop data sheets which should all be common knowledge to someone using these things. And again as others have said flared fitting offer a better seal and minimise air being sucked in to suction line. Compression with inserts is acceptable but if you're going to do it right flare it.
 
As WHPES above has said if using gravity then the length is almost irrelevant but if it's a really long run then up sizing will give a better flow rate due to less internal resistance. If the line is under suction, hence the term suction line using a tiger loop then its maximum length is around 300ft and up about 13. The longer and higher the lift the greater the suction head and its total suction head should not exceed suction capacity of the pump. Yes using 15mm will decrease the total but it also presents other problems ie, it's harder to suck up a larger diameter which can cause gases to form resulting in foaming in the loop but also you need to ensure you have the flow through the loop to prevent loss of siphon effect. All this can be found it tigerloop data sheets which should all be common knowledge to someone using these things. And again as others have said flared fitting offer a better seal and minimise air being sucked in to suction line. Compression with inserts is acceptable but if you're going to do it right flare it.
Cut my oil teeth on a Million Btu oil boiler. Used to have the monopoly with a 50 mile radius long ago on all Whitbread pubs which had numerous oil and gas boilers 300 to 500 thou. Never used a flared fitting on copper oil lines but never not fitted a stainless steel 'support sleeve' into 8mm bore 10mm OD nylon pipework. I've always used a smear of Loctiite 577 since it came out but oil seal was used before that came about on diesel & of course Kero. Biodiesel will destroy most sealants and even silicone. It even 'sweats' thro the green so called bio hoses. Never had a deal of trouble with compression fittings on dozens of joints made on 10 mm coiled copper! It's always been hard enough for me to not be detrimental to the joint provided a smear of the 'note appropriate' sealant is used at the front of the olive well away from the pipe end....... Done the odd big oil lines 1/2" bsp all threaded of course.
It says on this Tigerloop table that a 2 m lift bottom of suction pipe to height of fuel pump will deliver 5Kg of oil with a bore of 5 or 6 or 8 mm at 100 m length. I would personally and I would think plenty of others go for 10mm od pipe because over years a 10mm pipe clogs up less quicker than an 8mm od one. The details also explain the detriment of using a too large bore re air problems with such diameters. If you study the data on the various pump leaflets it might surprize some that a single pipe that is full of fuel can still be sucked into the pump although it is below the pump but the data is shown on all leaflets that come with fuel pumps. I've seen some installations that I did not install that when the system ran out of fuel I had to pump fuel back to the tank to fill the above bottom tank level pipework for the pump to work again!

I still have my instruction leaflet because that is what it is a leaflet. There is an explicit table for all lengths maximum runs which I could I suppose put on this site if anyone will find it useful please do tell? One item that is a NO NO is the fitting of any check valve in the single suction pipe from tank to Tiger loop which the leaflet does not categorically state. When anyone including me thinks about it air cannot get into that suction line because the Tiger has a stoppage within it. We fitted check valves to any below ground suction pipework as a matter of course but this was on two pipe fuel systems. This fitting of any restrictive valve is out of the question with a Tigerloop but it does not say that in the fitting instructions. It does show a plain ended suction pipe dipping into the tank. There is even a floating suction line that pulls fuel from the subsurface of the tank!!!!!!!! If plenty of fuel is kept in the tank the suction pipe never goes near the muck! I see the Tigerloop company are massive and are in the USA & no doubt Mr Tiger is sunning himself in a better climate that this buxxxr. As No doubt that astute boiler welder Mr W........ An oil engineer/tech really needs a table for oil supply pipe sizing because it's no good guessing the bore of a pipe & then finding it is incorrect now is it? My Old Tutor told a class of blokes up to about 40 years old when I was 22 and there were a few clever 'ones' .... Now look here you cannot design any heating system on the back of a *** packet..... He was so right.
 
That was interesting Miicklemus75, although I wonder why you quoted my post? Did I say something your experience disagrees with?
 
That was interesting Miicklemus75, although I wonder why you quoted my post? Did I say something your experience disagrees with?
No not at all..... I know I waffle on quite a bit but I suppose we have been in the job of helping folks whenever we can which has been lifelong for me....... I say what I have done with more than 50 years of experience but many might not agree...... That's no problem to me because I only go to one oil fired boiler apart from the interesting experimentation I do with our own oil fired boiler.....As I said I've fitted plenty of brake lines with all flared joints but have never put sealant on them only a smear of grease to bed the joint and help to undo it by those who may follow my installations. As I said though without a smear of the appropriate sealant some compression joints may leak just when you don't want them to. If possible tighten them once an forget them or should I say test them. One golden rule I stick to is that is essential to keep an open mind and at 78 I'm still learning. I must admit though I do sometimes think where on earth has that been taught when reading some posts. If a person wants to or feels the need to flare all oil line joints then that is their prerogative.
 
I totally understand and agree with you. Sorry I was misreading you. Yes it would be handy for an engineer to have a oil pipe sizing info but I've never found one lol. I also share a similar view to you in regards to always learning. Some people claim their fully trained but theres always something new to learn
 
I totally understand and agree with you. Sorry I was misreading you. Yes it would be handy for an engineer to have a oil pipe sizing info but I've never found one lol. I also share a similar view to you in regards to always learning. Some people claim their fully trained but theres always something new to learn
I put the mid way data re the bore size which is 100 metre long and three bore sizes! up to 8mm id. There must be the table on the leaflet I have which was supplied with the first bio diesel Tiger Holme device I have in situ.It could be about ten years old! As I said any one can make a mistake and that includes me who fitted a check valve at the end of the suction line 8mm ID. Sure enough it was stuck almost shut. I had a good laugh about some one in the USA who 'proved' it was the check/none return valve that was stopping circulation by putting the hoses in a bucket level with the burner then going down steps to a lower floor (god knows how he got temporary pipework to that level. he then said well the burner works well with those set ups so it might be the check valve! He was right so removed the check valve and presumably got paid for a full day and perhaps nights work fiddling about! I thought what a pantomime....... why didn't he go to check the none return first?........ Perhaps the customer was loaded and he knew it? A fuel distribution company used to tell me don't bill them we'll do it...... On the odd occasion the folks I billed directly were absolutely loaded but on the main they were ordinary working folks. One well breached customer said once 'they' double your bill you know !!!! I'm not surprised at that.
The gaffer's got to maintain his country mansion hasn't he? And I know they fish in the most expensive salmon river every year as well, millionaires water. I must not tread on any toes.
 

Reply to How far can a Oil pump draw from tank in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock