Help needed - Oil v LPG

[Bishops]

Hello,

I am looking for some helpful advice about alternative fuel options and came across this forum so thought it would be best to ask the experts as I am getting a mixed response. My property (off grid) has oil fired central heating at the mo with tank in the garden, 15 yr+ boiler, so I want to know what possible alternatives there are. I have read and been told a lot about LPG - what are the benefits for switching or are there better options out there. Also been told that biomass would be good, or is oil still the best?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[kimbo]

Dont get lpg will cost you a fortune to run but cheap to install. I had lpg and I am glad I changed to oil.

 

[Jimbob]

Wouldn't consider LPG. Far to expensive. Oil is going to be the cheapest. Biomass would be the best 'off grid' solution for sure; log, pellet or chip. This has been my main focus for the past 2 years and have many satisfied users.

 

[Centralheatking]

Hi Bishops, your question is agood one which rural homeowners wrestle with.

There are a number of energy comparison sites - google 'comparative cost of hot water'
for a family of 4 - cost of hot water for a year - heating follows suit
in order -cheapest 1st Nat gas £400, Lecky £700, Propane from £900-1400 depending how you buy it, Oil is cheaper than LPG but again it depends when you buy it. Coal and wood
are about the same as oil bit quite a bind. Biomass -pellets etc is relatively expensive
and can only rise as people like Stobart buy up all the wood they can.

I would get a bigger oil tank - hide it from view and buy your supplies in a co-operative
and when the price is low JUly eg. keep your boiler if its quite old it can be maintained and fixed
modern ones have to be thrown away when broken.

centralheatking

 

[Reg Man]

Air source heat pump (ASHP), if your property is well insulated and you size the radiators correctly. On a personal view point my house had oil before and over the last few years in comparison, I have halved my energy bills having ASHP with a small wood burner in the lounge to give a little extra back up. Planning to fit solar evacuation tubes on the roof for the hot water and some Photovoltaic to grab some electric, so hoping to make further savings on top. Just with the installation ASHP the saving has been £1,500 per year, so pay back was 4 years, so happy days from now on until the compressor fails.

 

[Ermintrude]

Solar thermal? Backed up by oil boiler.

 

[dontknowitall]

We're about to move to a house that has a biomass installation (for a farmhouse, farm and our house.) 6,000 litre hot water cylinder!! Boiler comes on about once every 2-3 days for about 1/2 a day. £150k installation and £15k RHI payments. 10 years and it will be all paid for!! And we get no heating bills and have been told to burn as much as possible for the owner to get his £15k. Mad system!

Back down to earth, oil is next cheapest after natural gas (some argue it's cheaper).

 

[Ermintrude]

It's cheaper if u buy enough of it and at right time of year but how much will a 25000l tank cost? What would your insurance be like?

Prices dictated by demand !

 

[Reg Man]

25000 litres = 5682 gallons, that's massive, Thought you could only store up to 2500 litres on a domestic, or maybe that is what you meant. Anything above that falls into the control of pollution regulations anything less than is under Part J Building Regulations.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I only know of two reasons to use LPG.

1) Mobility - if you don't want to be tied to bulk storage - hence the use in caravans and boats
2) If there is a realistic prospect of being connected to the grid in the next few years, in which case it may make sense to install lpg equipment which can be cheaply reconfigured for mains gas.

The various renewable options are worth considering, but without very significant investment its hard to find a solution that doesn't require some fossil fuel back up.

So my advice would be oil + (probably) solar thermal if the property is suitable.

 

[Julian_P]

Stick with oil, be clever and always phone suppliers for quotes, buy big quantities in summer if you can and get good prices.

LPG is a bugger as you have to sign up for (generally) 2 years and get tied into their prices - you cannot phone around for quotes. Also the supply is often very flakey and you can run out while the supplier dicks you around. 2 winters ago the refinery that my LPG comes from, Stanlow, now owned by the Indians, was falling apart (cracked 50 year old pipes etc etc) and they were shipping gas down from scotland in trucks and coasters to keep up _just_ with essential demand and limiting deliveries.

 

[Worcester]

Re: Help needed - Oil v LPG - go for biomass!

Why not consider biomass and get paid for it as well - pellet fuel is about the cheapest way per kwh to heat a property, and way cheaper than oil or lpg, (hence we're a little busy at the moment )
Fuel costs per kWh

Remember with the domestic RHI scheme you'll get paid for 7 years (they've condensed 20 years of payments into 7), plus finance is available.

Biomass doesn't stack up against mains gas though... (costs outweigh the benefits, unless >200kW and using woodchip)

 

[Ermintrude]

Re: Help needed - Oil v LPG - go for biomass!

Why not consider biomass and get paid for it as well - pellet fuel is about the cheapest way per kwh to heat a property, and way cheaper than oil or lpg, (hence we're a little busy at the moment )
Fuel costs per kWh

Remember with the domestic RHI scheme you'll get paid for 7 years (they've condensed 20 years of payments into 7), plus finance is available.

Biomass doesn't stack up against mains gas though... (costs outweigh the benefits, unless >200kW and using woodchip)

Pellets going to be expensive in few years ........... Poker chips will be cheaper. Ashp or gshp or even log gasification at least u can easily find fuel .,

 

[Worcester]

Re: Help needed - Oil v LPG - go for biomass!

Pellets going to be expensive in few years ........... Poker chips will be cheaper. Ashp or gshp or even log gasification at least u can easily find fuel .,

Maybe but across europe (and they use a lot more pellets there than we do) the price has been flat for about 15 years..

Yes they will go up - however how much more will oil and lpg go!

ASHP doesn't stack up with the RHI, especially as with the GSHP you'll need to change all the radiators.

GSHP is the best setup, but then you've also got to change all the rads and need a wadge of land - also best if you have a bunch of pv to offset the leccy bill , and although you get it back handsomely you still need a fair chunk of capital.

So for most people, if you're off gas grid then biomass has to be the best oil replacement option of the lot. (of course I'm biased, and there again we were on oil for 20 years... now just waiting for the lump sum of the RHPP £2000 for a biomass boiler, and then starting in March 2014 quarterly direct credit payments into my bank just for deciding to do something a bit greener than fracking Blackpool )

 

[Ermintrude]

U know ur green stuff. Had much to do with anaerobic digester? I'm interested in h2 generation.

 

[Ermintrude]

Re: Help needed - Oil v LPG - go for biomass!

Maybe but across europe (and they use a lot more pellets there than we do) the price has been flat for about 15 years..

Yes they will go up - however how much more will oil and lpg go!

ASHP doesn't stack up with the RHI, especially as with the GSHP you'll need to change all the radiators.

GSHP is the best setup, but then you've also got to change all the rads and need a wadge of land - also best if you have a bunch of pv to offset the leccy bill , and although you get it back handsomely you still need a fair chunk of capital.

So for most people, if you're off gas grid then biomass has to be the best oil replacement option of the lot. (of course I'm biased, and there again we were on oil for 20 years... now just waiting for the lump sum of the RHPP £2000 for a biomass boiler, and then starting in March 2014 quarterly direct credit payments into my bank just for deciding to do something a bit greener than fracking Blackpool )

Photo thermal pays best! And the fuel is free..... Back it up with oil? Then eventually bio if imports stay reasonable?

 

[Worcester]

Nope not a lot, except that just over a mile away we've got one of the best AD installations about - keeps getting good reviews and visits. It's big and exports both biogas and electricity to the grid locally... cost them over £100k just to have the roundabout put at the entrance that the highway authority insisted on to allow the trucks that were already going along that road to the landfill site to turn into the site instead!

AD is an exceeding complex area with loads and loads of controls on all aspects of the plant from initial materials handling to export metering the gas and heat. So steering clear of it for a while .

 

[Worcester]

Our personal set up : Massive PV, Massive Solar Thermal, ASHP for the office (standalone, new build), Biomass for the house, BIG thermal store to capture all the 'free' heat, multiple ImmerSun's that divert excess generated PV (and ONLY the excess because that's free) to immersion heaters top and bottom of the (unvented ) thermal store.

 

[happyflyer]

Bishops,

You need to come at this from an entirely different angle, whatever fuel you use you need to use the least you possibly can, by that I mean before you start to look at fuel types you need to insulate the property to the highest level, you need the best controls system to help you reduce the boiler runtime and you need to ensure your property is as airtight as possible.
None of this is usually consider when you have a gas main into the house, because you haven't any real need to start to look at running cost.
My take on oil and propane is slightly different, propane is a premium fuel like Nat Gas, it's clean and boilers are able to run at the highest efficiencies possible with the mess like oil, proper servicing is a must with oil and we all know that some gas boilers never get service until they breakdown, that could be 5 years. (not saying you shouldn't have gas boilers serviced - that would never do)
Like someone has already stated a propane boiler is cheap compared to oil and you would never know it was there, no smells etc. The delivery of propane I don't think is an issue and little do you know when you turn on an gas appliance in your house you are burning some propane in there anyway, it's coming in from Africa and been mixed in the services now North Sea Gas is sadly nearly all gone.
If you can get your dwelling to use the least possible energy regardless of the tree huggers, GSHP,ASHP, PV, Solar Thermal, etc the difference in running cost will be minimal.
Look at this way, typically new properties are using boilers under 10Kw, the same size house built 50 years back 30Kws, three times the energy required.

Just my slant on it.

 

[Julian_P]

I'm not sure about this 'clean fuel' thing peddled by the gas retailers. I've had two houses with oil boilers and they run just as cleanly as gas when set correctly. Also with an oil boiler you can service it yourself, which like gas, is a very simple process that does not need a degree in rocket science and therforesave yourself a bundle of cash annually.

Comparing fuel costs in terms of Kilowatt hours. Electricity is 100% efficient at the point of use, I suspect solid fuel boilers are anything but? The other major drawback with a solid fuel boiler is the inconvenience and lack of flexibility. They could be great in a care home with a caretaker on duty to look after it and dispose of the ash etc etc but in a typical home with adults that work and a house that is uninhabited for large chunks of time then it's going to be wasteful. The furniture won't thank you for being warm.

Julian

 

[Ermintrude]

http://www.solarbayer.com/Wood-boiler-HVS-E-LC.html?gclid=COac-a-J3LkCFbHKtAodeRsAYw

Connect this baby to a bank of ACV slimline sl and you have heat when u want. Massive burnout in morning or at night twice a week. Zone valves and programmable stat programmers keep waste down. Every room in my house has zone valve, built a manifold by boiler . 200000 wires though!

 

[Dotty]

I'm not sure about this 'clean fuel' thing peddled by the gas retailers. I've had two houses with oil boilers and they run just as cleanly as gas when set correctly. Also with an oil boiler you can service it yourself, which like gas, is a very simple process that does not need a degree in rocket science and therforesave yourself a bundle of cash annually.

Really?

I get fed up with this attitude. Do you prove your poc's with an fga?

Do you check your pump pressures?

Do you ensure all safety devices are working within the correct parameters?

Do you ensure the entire installation is in accordance with the regulations in force at the time?

You might be saving some money. Well done you.

You place everyone's life in jeopardy and possibly run the risk of a major environmental incident but, it's not rocket science, you've saved less than a hundred pounds a year. You must be immensely proud of yourself.

I hope you don't become a statistic.

 

[Ermintrude]

Poc & fga? Arnt they Pokemon?

 

[Julian_P]

>Really?

Indeed

>I get fed up with this attitude.

That's your prerogative

> Do you prove your poc's with an fga?

Yes

>Do you check your pump pressures?

Yes

>Do you ensure all safety devices are working within the correct parameters?

Yes

>Do you ensure the entire installation is in accordance with the regulations in force at the time?

I've no interest, the installation was fine when fitted and to suggest that one needs to constantly modify to keep up with current regs is absurd - next you'll be wanting me to retrofit my MGB with anti-lock brakes.

>You might be saving some money. Well done you.

Thank-you, I find that saving money a worthwhile activity.

>You place everyone's life in jeopardy and possibly run the risk of a major environmental incident but, it's not rocket science,

What an utter load of hyperbole and twaddle.

>you've saved less than a hundred pounds a year.

More than that, oil filters, a new tank, motor for the blower, oil pump all DIY and over ten years I've saved the thick end of 2K - money that goes into my pension fund.

>I hope you don't become a statistic.

Having worked on everything myself since I was 16 and am now 52, I have yet to become a statistic, so I'll take my chances if that's OK with you and resist the temptation to succumb to idiotic scaremongering.

Julian.

 

[Dotty]

Idiotic scaremongering?

Goodbye.

 

[Dotty]

Let this be a hint to people reading this in the future.

Having an fga and the other appropriate tools to service your own boiler doesn't make you qualified to do so.

Only the proper training does that. It also gives you access to regulations that you would be obliged to put into effect as and when required.

"It's not rocket science." And "It's idiotic scaremongering." Are cold comfort when you lose you property, your family, your life to the one thing in your house that, if given half a chance, will kill you.

 

[lame plumber]

U know ur green stuff. Had much to do with anaerobic digester? I'm interested in h2 generation.

I was working on an lpg boiler for a farmer that preheated all his cow pooh in order to start up his ad plant, which when it ran properly powered up a massive methane run generator for feeding back into the grid. sadly tho the company involved has just gone bust, so not sure if its still working at present. Only drawback to my mind is the need for 200 cows to provide enough ****

 

[Ermintrude]

U can use human poo, and for that matter any organic matter. The genny thing is very common in USA. Dairy farms with 20000 cattle all in barns so the floors are just washed down into trough. Micro generation and domestic refuse really interesting ...... Problems are bleach and bio washing products. Vegans are excellent though as normally only use lavender and natural soaps.

Pre heating? Should use heat off front end of genny!

 

[lame plumber]

you need heat for the initial start up before its producing any methane!

 

[Ermintrude]

you need heat for the initial start up before its producing any methane!

Must be running batch and not continuous . If u running continuos heat the feed stream. Batch reactors are sluggish and involve slow turn around.

Never get any interesting jobs ! Just same old carp!!!

 

[happyflyer]

Hello,

I am looking for some helpful advice about alternative fuel options and came across this forum so thought it would be best to ask the experts as I am getting a mixed response. My property (off grid) has oil fired central heating at the mo with tank in the garden, 15 yr+ boiler, so I want to know what possible alternatives there are. I have read and been told a lot about LPG - what are the benefits for switching or are there better options out there. Also been told that biomass would be good, or is oil still the best?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks

:smilewinkgrin:

Bishops are you any the wiser having run this by the experts or are you going to get a heard of cattle and a big tank you will never getting planning permission for, if you are not worried about saving the planet, leave the insulation levels of the dwelling as they are and fit an oil fired boiler, grit your teeth when the tank is empty, good luck, as far as you getting mixed responses before, coming here you have gained some more.

I must admit you have perhaps had a few more here you would not expect for a domestic dwelling, BTW have you checked the cost of a biomass boiler, maybe you should, if you are thinking of ending you days in the property you may get your money back.

IMO like location location, insulation insulation oh and airtightness airtightness, it's no use putting PV or Solar thermal on the roof with a 1" gap under the front door or single glazed windows.

Still lets us all know what you deicide to do, it will be interesting to see if your take on all this has changed.

Tony

 

[Worcester]

Though I'd go one stage further and say that by installing a Biomass boiler, with the RHPP and RHI, you will definitely get your money back (and some )and reduce you're ongoing fuel bills.

 

[Ermintrude]

Bishops are you any the wiser having run this by the experts or are you going to get a heard of cattle and a big tank you will never getting planning permission for, if you are not worried about saving the planet, leave the insulation levels of the dwelling as they are and fit an oil fired boiler, grit your teeth when the tank is empty, good luck, as far as you getting mixed responses before, coming here you have gained some more.

I must admit you have perhaps had a few more here you would not expect for a domestic dwelling, BTW have you checked the cost of a biomass boiler, maybe you should, if you are thinking of ending you days in the property you may get your money back.

IMO like location location, insulation insulation oh and airtightness airtightness, it's no use putting PV or Solar thermal on the roof with a 1" gap under the front door or single glazed windows.

Still lets us all know what you deicide to do, it will be interesting to see if your take on all this has changed.

Tony

For continuos u don't need a big tank! U can use cesspit ! Stuff u get out is suitable for veg patch.

 

[lame plumber]

Must be running batch and not continuous . If u running continuos heat the feed stream. Batch reactors are sluggish and involve slow turn around.

Never get any interesting jobs ! Just same old carp!!!

when you start initially you need a preheat!! and when you drain down the vessels and clean them out they need some heat as well. 3 separate tanks, all run continuously and work quite well, but problems come when you need to remove the sludge build up which kills off the process. probably why the company went toes up, apart from relying on air jets to agitate the slurry in a square holding tank rather than using a stirrer in a round tank!!!!!!!! other issue was the blow off valves failling recently and a rather large lump off methane venting in a hurry Sooo glad I had not got involved any further with their requests for help.

forgot to mention, the boiler also got converted fm lpg to methane so it became self sufficient at heating the slurry once things got going. That was interesting as Remeha werent that impressed initially although they got more interested later on with how things were going with their boiler on cow pooh methane, and offered advice. Gas safe were unsure of rules involved with this one as well!! not surprisingly as it wasnt natural gas or lpg

 

[Ermintrude]

Think from what I have said the process it batch . I.e u fill tank let bacteria work and then empty out. A continuous process is like a pipeline, it never stops. Poop in one end and gas and sludge out the other. It's more dynamic than batch as if u get bleach or chemicals in u just dump that plug. Problem is catalyst (enzyme) retention.

The reactor vessels should get hot during the process? So a jacket of cooling water helps keep enzymes in comfort zone and then the water from jacket used to heat next vessel and fees stream.

Injecting air is very strange! It's anaerobic so should be oxygen free. If you introduce air you generate carboxylic acids and lots of sulphates
Mechanical agitation is the way to go. Freed stock should be at about 12% solids to water to avoid cake, methane gets trapped and then enzyme stops working.

Think if your generating gas it's the people who do gas transporters, not GS ?

Was the gas scrubbed or cleaned before it went into boiler?