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Hello all, there will be an article about this prosecution in the next Registered Gas Engineer magazine, including a look at the specific technical issues. The issue is being finalised now and the magazine posted out at the end of the month.

GasSafePR
 
Thanks for the heads up. I'm sure we'll all be reading with particular interest.


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You need the CPA1 qualification, but you don't legally have to own/use an analyser.


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Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.

The HSE would have looked at the assessment centre that recommended him for certification to check that they are meeting the correct standards regarding the assessments, if found lacking they will also be held responsible.
Rob
 
Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.


Rob

'If manufactures specify '

I think you will find a lot of manufacturers surprisenly at the moment do no require the installer the use an analyser for initial instalation maybe this will change once one manufacturer is brave enough to make it so

So you intact do not need to buy beg or borrow an analyser at the moment

Think you are guilty of scare mongering here and mixing maybe good practice with legal responsibility to make your point

As for engineer got what he deserved,that is your opinion ,with limited facts,the judge
gave the minimum he could and it seems from reports,if he could of given a leaner punishment he would have,I personally hope with good behaviour ect he will soon be out and back with his family

Imho
 
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'If manufactures specify '

I think you will find a lot of manufacturers surprisenly at the moment do no require the installer the use an analyser for inishal instalation maybe this will change once one manufacturer is brave enough to make it so

So you intact do not need to buy beg or borrow an analyser at the moment

Think you are guilty of scar mongering here and mixing maybe good practice with legal responsibility to make your point

As for engineer got what he deserved,that is your opinion ,with limited facts,the judge
gave the minimum he could and it seems from reports,if he could of given a leaner punishment he would have,I personally hope with good behaviour ect he will soon be out and back with his family

Imho

Look on the benchmark paperwork, there is a field to fill in regarding CO/CO2 ratio, at present it is a split between maunufacturers if it is needed for installing them but it is required when perfoming a service.

You hope he is soon back with his family, maybe you could get him round to install a boiler for you when he gets out, what about the family of the girl he KILLED, will they ever get her back, no, i know no punishment will ever bring her back but should he just be allowed to carry on as if nothing had happened.
 
Beg to Differ, IF the manufacturers instructions specify the testing of POC then you DO LEGALLY have to use an analyser, all boiler manufacturers do give CO/CO2 ratio's so yes you do have to OWN (or hire) and use one. The CPA1 is now part of the CCN1 assessment.

This engineer deserves what he got, no excuses for missing the screws from the flue, shortcuts etc.

The HSE would have looked at the assessment centre that recommended him for certification to check that they are meeting the correct standards regarding the assessments, if found lacking they will also be held responsible.
Rob

I think you are being a bit tough on the guy here Rob. I can't say that I am not guilty with regard to missing the odd screw on a flue over the last three decades, however I am sure that more will come out in due course - we don't know the full facts about the case yet.

However, with regard the centre, how can they be liable? They have no control over the choices people make once they have been assessed.

In addition, you infer that you do not take short cuts - perhaps think about the CCN1 and ACS - isn't this just a short-cut? Maybe you are guilty of a few of these short-cuts of your own! You are the responsible person in the assessment centre, if you are certain all your ACS test instruments are accurate, then sleep easy. However, I think otherwise.
 
Ideal specifically state in the logic manual that a flue gas analysis is not required on a new install due to the boiler being checked at the factory. If it were a service, that's a different story.

Realistically the guy was in a rush, whacked the thing on the wall, got it piped and then forgot to finish the flue. Obviously he would never admit such a thing, if I am honest i'm not sure I would knowing the potential punishment, and I consider myself an honest person.

I kinda feel for the guy but it hammers home the responsibility every one of us has on our shoulders.

It also, in my opinion, should make the public realise that because of said responsibility and the potentials if you slip up, warrants a fair price for all installers. ( of all fuel types) This guy had killed someone and gone to prison trying to earn a living, not likely to happen to your average secretary or IT consultant.

I agree with above comments though, now CPA is mandatory, every new boiler sshould be checked, the same as a PDI on a new car, it takes minutes and could have saved this girls life.
 
I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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Regardless of what the MI's state, it's good practice to FGA a new boiler and takes two minutes, and for the piece of mind it gives then its worth the effort.
as for the bloke who has been prosecuted, of course I feel sorry for him, and by the sounds of it, it was a one off mistake from a trustworthy bloke. But, he has made an error, albeit, not on purpose. But he has to be made accountable for his actions. I wish the bloke no ill intentions, but he has done something wrong, maybe for some the guilt he'll feel for the rest of his life is enough, but for others it won't be.
We still don't know all the facts so can't really make a full judgement on this yet, it will be interesting reading note the gas safe mag next month, so we will just have to wait and see.
everyone has their opinion, which is what makes this such a difficult subject to discuss and agree on.
personally if it is just an honest mistake then I feel the punishment fits the crime, coupled with the guilt he will be feeling makes it enough for me. But until all the facts are known, we can't make a full judgement.
 
Regardless of what the MI's state, it's good practice to FGA a new boiler and takes two minutes, and for the piece of mind it gives then its worth the effort.
as for the bloke who has been prosecuted, of course I feel sorry for him, and by the sounds of it, it was a one off mistake from a trustworthy bloke. But, he has made an error, albeit, not on purpose. But he has to be made accountable for his actions. I wish the bloke no ill intentions, but he has done something wrong, maybe for some the guilt he'll feel for the rest of his life is enough, but for others it won't be.
We still don't know all the facts so can't really make a full judgement on this yet, it will be interesting reading note the gas safe mag next month, so we will just have to wait and see.
everyone has their opinion, which is what makes this such a difficult subject to discuss and agree on.
personally if it is just an honest mistake then I feel the punishment fits the crime, coupled with the guilt he will be feeling makes it enough for me. But until all the facts are known, we can't make a full judgement.

I agree on all counts.


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I think you are being a bit tough on the guy here Rob. I can't say that I am not guilty with regard to missing the odd screw on a flue over the last three decades, however I am sure that more will come out in due course - we don't know the full facts about the case yet.

However, with regard the centre, how can they be liable? They have no control over the choices people make once they have been assessed.

In addition, you infer that you do not take short cuts - perhaps think about the CCN1 and ACS - isn't this just a short-cut? Maybe you are guilty of a few of these short-cuts of your own! You are the responsible person in the assessment centre, if you are certain all your ACS test instruments are accurate, then sleep easy. However, I think otherwise.


We are held responsible for 6 years after the assessment if we let someone through that is not competent, the HSE will look at all the factors when investigating an inccident.
CPA1 is mandatory, you HAVE to hold it from the 1st april or your CCN1 is invalid so if that is the case WHY is it not a requirement to have AND use one, answer, it is required.
I am not "scare mongering" this guy killed someone, now maybe he did just "forget" to install the screws, maybe he couldn't be bothered it doesn't matter as either way the result is still the same, should he be punished, I believe yes, perhaps this will make other "forgetful" engineers remember in future or think twice before just throwing them in their tool box.
Worcester Bosch REQUIRE the use of a analyser when servicing, Alpha REQUIRE the use of an analyser when installing a boiler as do Keston, no you are not expected to adjust them as they are factory set BUT we know that things can go out of calibration in transit, but you are required to check them when commissioning.
I am CERTAIN that all of out test equipment is accurate, we have to have it calibrated/tested, in addition to that we are constantly checking it ourselves, we also have to be assessed, both in house and external, we do not take shortcuts due to the nature of the "game" we play, if someone is not performing as they should then they are failed, I failed one today for that reason, WE CANNOT AND DO NOT TAKE SHORTCUTS, by the way you are talking you do or miss the odd thing, how would you sleep if this had happened to you?
 
I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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Yes I am an assessor with over 30 years in the trade to go with it, my collegue has over 40 years in the trade, our IV has over 40 years in the trade

The guy may have been "unfortunate" as you say but that is the problem in this industry, as has been said with most other jobs/career's a mistake does not cost people their life, if we make a mistake it can and will, I personally think he got off very lightly and was lucky with the judge he had, maybe it was a genuine oversight but one thing is for sure he will NEVER do it again if he is allowed to ever work on gas again and I really hope that other engineers will learn from him.
If it is not as you say a requirement then WHY do you do it, to make sure it is SAFE I suspect, if so good for you, if people are only installing boilers of one make that doesnt state POC should be checked, never working on cookers, space heaters etc they may get away without having a FGA for now but not for long.
Another centre we deal with had a brand new cooker delivered, 9 different engineers assessed the flame picture on the grill and said they would pass it, when the POC's were checked it was putting out 23,000 ppm CO, so we can see that even a new appliance does need to be checked.
 
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Sorry but I've already been assessed, by someone . And I was also subject to INTERNAL VERIFICATION. Thanks for your concern.

Seems strange to me to join a forum with the sole intention of acting so aggressive in a single thread.

I FGA for a number of reasons. Safety being first, I'm not saying it shouldnt be done, I'm saying it's NOT A REQUIREMENT, unless stated otherwise, which is very rare.

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I have yet to see boiler M.I's that state you MUST use a FGA on a new install. I do it anyway cos thats the kind of guy I am.

Personally I think the guy is guilty of negligence but tbh, I think he was unfortunate and the guilt he will suffer for the rest of his life is punishment he will never forget. I think if you don't feel bad for the guy there's something wrong.

It's pretty easy to persecute someone from your comfy chair in your assessment centre, if you really ARE what you say you are.


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From Alpha InTec C & X manual, it is on their website if you still don't believe it.

5.6 CHECK THE BURNER PRESSURES - Figs. 26 and 27​
Press and hold in the reset button for eight seconds and the boiler will fire at a fixed output depending on the position of theboiler central heating thermostat knob.Turn the boiler central heating thermostat to maximum to check the maximum central heating burner pressure.With the boiler central heating thermostat set to maximum fully open a hot tap to check the maximum domestic hot waterburner pressure. In this mode the inlet gas supply pressure and CO/CO​
2 ratio can be checked. Refer to Technical Data, Section 2.1 and 2.2 for the required differential burner pressure values.
Note: The burner pressure settings have been factory set and should not require adjusting.
 
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Sorry but I've already been assessed, by someone who wasn't a complete douche. And I was also subject to INTERNAL VERIFICATION. Thanks for your concern.

Seems strange to me to join a forum with the sole intention of acting like an arse in a single thread.

I FGA for a number of reasons. Safety being first, I'm not saying it shouldnt be done, I'm saying it's NOT A REQUIREMENT, unless stated otherwise, which is very rare.

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You are the one acting the "douche" and a complete P**T, if you are the typical forum member then I will not bother looking in again, I found this forum today and joined to help people to get the right information, unlike you giving FALSE information, I replied to a post that was incorrect, check your facts, why did you join? just because you like to think you know everything when you really don't, keep going.
I hope that what happened to the girl in question NEVER happens to ANYONE else, not even you or the engineer that did it, yes he will have to live with what he has done and prison may not be justified to some but opinion (and I am entitled to it and to voice it) is he should serve it all
If people have the right information then it should not, if they listen to you then it might to them.
 
Careful ccn1 assesor, IMO it's easy to criticise other peoples failings when you don't do the tools for a living anymore.
 
Careful ccn1 assesor, IMO it's easy to criticise other peoples failings when you don't do the tools for a living anymore.

I agree and I may not be on my tools anymore in the real world but I do have to constantly work in a safe manner in the centre, monitor what people are doing in the assessment centre and update the appliances, in fact I am finding it harder and harder to install appliances that don't meet the regs due to the safety systems that are being used, I know that everything that is required is not done in the real world, i have no control over that, I dont agree with all the requirements for the assessments but I also see some of the candidates that come through the centre that should never have a gas safe card/
 
I already said unless stated otherwise, which I have personally never seen. I'm not disputing that it may be the case in some instances. Why use a singular example out of the possible hundreds of boiler instructions to argue your case? Because its the only example you can find, that's why.

Let's put this to bed.



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CCN1 for someone who works in an assessment centre your knowledge and understanding of the regs leaves a bit to be desired regardless on your views of this sad incident.
CPA1 is mandatory, you HAVE to hold it from the 1st april or your CCN1 is invalid so if that is the case WHY is it not a requirement to have AND use one, answer, it is required.
I'll let you find that one out for yourself as you will have access to all the regs. Have a read. Hint GSIUR.
And also you should know the mandatory date has been put back a wee bit.

Look on the benchmark paperwork, there is a field to fill in regarding CO/CO2 ratio

You missed out the bit saying "if required by the manufacturer, record the following"

From Alpha InTec C & X manual, it is on their website if you still don't believe it.

5.6 CHECK THE BURNER PRESSURES - Figs. 26 and 27​
Press and hold in the reset button for eight seconds and the boiler will fire at a fixed output depending on the position of theboiler central heating thermostat knob.Turn the boiler central heating thermostat to maximum to check the maximum central heating burner pressure.With the boiler central heating thermostat set to maximum fully open a hot tap to check the maximum domestic hot waterburner pressure. In this mode the inlet gas supply pressure and CO/CO​
2 ratio can be checked. Refer to Technical Data, Section 2.1 and 2.2 for the required differential burner pressure values.
Note: The burner pressure settings have been factory set and should not require adjusting.

I've highlighted the key word for you. You should know the difference in meaning between can, shall, should or must as you are teaching it every day.

If you are going to have a rant get your facts right. Maybe all you have highlighted in your posts apart from your opinions (some of which i do agree with) is that some assessors are perhaps not as clever or as high and mighty as they think they are.
Just because we work with our hands does not make us fools.
 
ccn1 for someone who works in an assessment centre your knowledge and understanding of the regs leaves a bit to be desired regardless on your views of this sad incident.

I'll let you find that one out for yourself as you will have access to all the regs. Have a read. Hint gsiur.
And also you should know the mandatory date has been put back a wee bit.



You missed out the bit saying "if required by the manufacturer, record the following"



i've highlighted the key word for you. You should know the difference in meaning between can, shall, should or must as you are teaching it every day.

If you are going to have a rant get your facts right. Maybe all you have highlighted in your posts apart from your opinions (some of which i do agree with) is that some assessors are perhaps not as clever or as high and mighty as they think they are.
Just because we work with our hands does not make us fools.



yes and **** you too> now lets hope that is enough to ban me and delete my account, really cannot be bothered to be on here with all you loosers
 
I agree in principle with CCNassessor and lets face it, if we could all spend 5 days on a boiler chop and polish the pipes with brasso we would. But it's not like that any more. Saturated market, dog eat dog and unregistered or cash in hand fitters to compete with.

This isn't an excuse but what is done in a theoretical practise and what people have to do to earn a living are far apart from one another. Not condoning what has happened at all, I agree the bloke got off lightly considering the outcome, if it were my daughter i'd want to see blood but this is a situation created by incompetence not only on the installers behalf, but the whole economy and mindset of customers who want cheap cheap cheap... well this may be the outcome

Also, FGA's, condensing boilers, a lot has changed over the last 10 years yet we are still referring back to GSIUR which is 15 years old? These kind of practises need to be made compulsory to give clarity to the requirements and yes I think every boiler new or old should be analysed as it is a quick test that provides you enough info to make a decision on the spot if an appliance is burning correctly or not.
 
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yes and **** you too> now lets hope that is enough to ban me and delete my account, really cannot be bothered to be on here with all you loosers

Learn from constructive criticism. No one is perfect and we are all forever learning.
You won't get banned for 4 stars. Hang around a bit as i'm sure you have some good stuff to offer.
 
Also, FGA's, condensing boilers, a lot has changed over the last 10 years yet we are still referring back to GSUIR which is 15 years old? These kind of practises need to be made compulsory to give clarity to the requirements

It will come but these things take a bit time to do.
 
You say that Tamz but IEE have released a whole new edition and an amendment to the electrical reg's in that time, and there's a lot of stuff in those books, especially the change from 16th to 17th.

No excuse in my eyes, clarity is what's required and nothing is stopping them from doing so.
 
It is being pushed for although mainly by outside bodies and it will come around soon.
 
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