Have I been ripped off?

[tyro]

Hi all. I am an absentee landlord because I work in the UAE and rent out my (future retirement) house. I rent it out through an agency. I suspect that the plumbers they use may be taking advantage of the fact I'm not there. They billed me 888 pounds (inc parts and VAT) in Sep 2011 for a new hot water cylinder including 2 new immersion heaters.

My agent just emailed to say that both immersions and the timer have gone and that they are seized in place. The plumber has said that he may end up breaking the cylinder in getting them out, so I may have to fork out for a new installation. I'm not a plumber but I'm a reasonable DIY'er and I've done a bit of research (now, not before); the original 888 pounds seems steep, and the immersions being so badly seized in place seems odd after only 4.5 years, especially as the same plumber that fitted the immersions is the one now unable to remove them. Am I being unreasonable in thinking I'm being taken for a ride here?

I'd appreciate your thoughts, I don't want to go accusing the plumber of dodgy practice unless I have my facts straight. Cheers.

 

[rpm]

Where is the house?

 

[Dalejones]

Sounds abit steap but it depends on ur location I suppose

 

[SimonG]

What sort of cylinder, what part of the country, change agent.

If you have a house here and live out in the uae then theres not a lot you can do about it.

How are you going to get your facts right from a plumbing forum?

Plumber probably only charged the agency 600.

 

[woodytheplumber]

cant/wont comment on the price but it might just be that the plumber has forewarned you about the possibility of splitting the cylinder on removal of immersions as it does happen from time to time

 

[steadyon]

New cylinder around £200, two immersions (if good ones) another £50 or so. Drain, disconnect, remove old, install new and re-connect, fill up and test at least 4 hours and if difficult / poor access could easily be all day. Assume two people at an average of £30 / hour gives between £240 to £400 (ish) for a total of (say) £250 + £320 = £570 + VAT = £684. Labour could easily be double in London, taking it to £890 + VAT.

Who billed you for the previous cylinder, two immersions and fitting? If it was the agents it is quite possible they added a bit, and it could be a good bit, to the plumbers bill. Its one of the reasons I won't work for agents - they make me look ridiculously expensive (instead of just expensive).

Quite possible for the immersion heaters to "weld" themselves in place in 4 1/2 years. I think the plumber is just warning you of the worst case, and he's doing the right thing. There are ways of getting stubborn immersions out, but they can be time consuming, and hence costly, and no guarantee that they work in the end.

Lets hope he can get them out without damaging the cylinder, but if it were me I'd not be offering any guarantees.

 

[townfanjon]

Did they change an unvented cylinder ?

 

[tyro]

Thanks all for the fast replies. The house is just outside Ipswich. The agents always charge me exactly what's shown on the original invoice, so I'm sure they aren't skimming - I doubt any plumber would bother doing a deal with them and splitting the difference, the amounts are piffling. The plumbers are an established firm in the area. The parts were 465 pounds and labour was 275, with VAT on top.

 

[townfanjon]

If it was an unvented ( stainless ) the immersions would have defiantly come out , a copper vented cylinder , well , they can be a bit tricky

 

[tyro]

As for the type of cylinder I don't have a clue - I didn't query anything at the time because the tenants had no hot water and I just wanted to get them back online. I am on here mainly because the present tenants are a nightmare and the costs associated with my house are getting out of hand - they are real potential Jeremy Kyle guests I've now found out - they have peed off all the neighbours, police there at all hours and in six months I've spent more fixing stuff for them than all my previous tenants in the last 8 years. Oh, and they tried to get me to renew the up and over garage door they claimed was faulty - luckily a neighbour saw one of their cronies back a wagon into it whilst it was open, so at least that much is coming out of their bond. They will not be renewing! Thanks again all for your inputs.

 

[cr0ft]

If it was an unvented ( stainless ) the immersions would have defiantly come out , a copper vented cylinder , well , they can be a bit tricky

I thought that too but I've had one of them before where the immersion would not come out for love nor money. We do have hard water round here though.

 

[townfanjon]

Yep crofty you have dodgy water over there, i used to subby for kingspan and have changed hundreds of imm heaters, with my modified big spanner , they all loose lol , even on the east coast .

Tyro, you sound like you have the tenants from hell there mate , good luck .

 

[magicno1]

I haven't had one seize in thirty years!!!! Just heat them up with a blow lamp they come out easy!

 

[AWheating]

at a guess the price does not sound to bad..........prob a eco 7 cylinder, 2 x imm heaters, eco 7 timer, pipe, fittings, labour for plumber and sparks, vat.

as for removing the immersions, there is always a risk of damage but they will def come out. Make sure they fit quality immersion heaters.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

never failed to remove a immersion with a 24 stillsons,but as said they can tear

 

[gasmanrob]

They can be stitch drilled and cut out which is messy and time consuming I've done it twice, the extra hours labour was cheaper then a new cylinder

 

[drip-dry]

in a nut shell ...yes you are being ripped off...wool pulled over ya eyes ect..you will see the bill as it works by invoicing full amount and then they pay less say 15..20% under the discount for quick payment scheme ;-) ..but what can you do..all agents are at it....

they call it property management...but probably the folk at the agents know nothing about the property infrastructure or how anything works and do not care..they just pass to their golden goose contractor...to repair and invoice whatever..their cut mounts up nicely.....which is a bit sharp when they are suppose to be looking after your best interests

 

[samwilko]

I'd say no you re not being ripped off. That first price looks pretty good for the labour, no one can comment on the price of the cylinder as you don't know size, material, style of it.
As for them warning you the tank may split, it's good practise to cover themselves when the owner is absent, I always do that for my letting agents as there is no one at the property to see the tank has damaged during immersion removal apart from the tenants who couldn't give a toss. Chances are it won't happen but if it does you knew it was a possibility.
Not all letting agents are skimming. Some are just grateful to have someone they can trust to get to their properties fairly quickly and do an honest job.

 

[Ray Stafford]

The agents always charge me exactly what's shown on the original invoice, so I'm sure they aren't skimming - I doubt any plumber would bother doing a deal with them and splitting the difference, the amounts are piffling. The plumbers are an established firm in the area.

I can't speak for the actual transaction - there are plenty of guys on here who could give you more accurate info.

But if you really believe the quote I highlighted above, you might be being a tad naive.

The amount of YOUR plumbing might be piffling. But the value of the total of all plumbing in the portfolio controlled by the agent will be significant. And money doesn't have to change hands - lots of agents have property of their own, and its easy for one hand to wash the other, when maintenance is required on such properties.

I'm not accusing anyone, as I don't know your agent or your plumber. But such scams are commoner than ticks on a hound dawg.

 

[cr0ft]

I haven't had one seize in thirty years!!!! Just heat them up with a blow lamp they come out easy!

To be fair on this one I decided what I was going to get for changing the immersion heater wasn't worth the risk of damaging the unvented cylinder and politely declined the job. I probably could have got it out but not worth the risk for an hours wage.

 

[edd789]

What are the agents fee's? I do a lot of work for a estate agent, they take a commission off my final invoice.

I regularly have landlords getting someone in privately because they're cheaper. But the fact is they're aren't cheaper, I just have the agents commission to add on, so I get paid the wage/profit I'd like from the job.

 

[REDSAW]

in a nut shell ...yes you are being ripped off...wool pulled over ya eyes ect..you will see the bill as it works by invoicing full amount and then they pay less say 15..20% under the discount for quick payment scheme ;-) ..but what can you do..all agents are at it....

they call it property management...but probably the folk at the agents know nothing about the property infrastructure or how anything works and do not care..they just pass to their golden goose contractor...to repair and invoice whatever..their cut mounts up nicely.....which is a bit sharp when they are suppose to be looking after your best interests

i am with dippy on this,
agents stick 15-20% on for a service fee and if you cant see it or they say not then its a lie.
their in business to make money so believe that!.

£888-20%-15%vat=£212 commision for agent. the plumbers price is also 20% on the high side as well, although that might be due to invoicing and terms. ie. having to wait 60 days for payment.
then again, it could be a fortic tank that costs more?
cheaper to appoint your own people!

i do work for national maintenance contractors for letting agents and to be fair, i charge what i like the contractors add on 10-20% & the letting agents add another 10-20% plus 20% vat to the final bill, its how the world rolls!!

or, we could all emigrate to uae, earn loads pay no tax.lol

 

[smtplumbing]

Depending the size of the tank we have just priced a powerflow2000 economy 7 210 l 745 plus vat

 

[jaydebruyne]

Yep crofty you have dodgy water over there, i used to subby for kingspan and have changed hundreds of imm heaters, with my modified big spanner , they all loose lol , even on the east coast .

Tyro, you sound like you have the tenants from hell there mate , good luck .

I've done a few immersions this week. One of which was a bugger to get out. Can you tell me more about your modded spanner??? A pic if poss?

In the end I added a bit of heat to it but boy was I sweating like a .....

 

[hammers4spanner]

What do you define as being ripped off from just expensive???

 

[CXR100]

I hate immersions!! all started after I ripped a cylinder at my first ever immersion job that my employer sent me to do myself!! I tried to mend the rip with white silicone!!! to escape the telling off!! (what a cowboy!! ha) thinking back I was naïve to attempt it!! must be around 500 years old cylinder!! ha-ha I fitted a new one and got to take the old one home and take it to the scrap!!! happy days!! touch wood I have never ripped one after that, I always heat them up. I always take the wires ,stat etc out and heat inside the brass piece, I don't like to heat the copper as it will soften it and it will be then more likely to rip ! also was told to always tap the spanner around with a lump hammer and never to use hands to lever it a this will also increase the chances of ripping cylinder!!

 

[Ray Stafford]

What do you define as being ripped off from just expensive???

Question of the week!

If you have been actively misled about the price, that could be "ripped off"

However, if the price is just more than you were expecting, if you didn't check, then who should you blame?

 

[CXR100]

if the plumber in question did the job straight away and completed the job in good time without disrupting you tenants with no leaks and hot water back working etc , then why are you complaining about the price? its not that bad imho

 

[PhoenixServices]

Doesn't seem that expensive really, especially the info we are going on. Same as cxr says really. Anyway you say it was 4 years ago so why worry now, the guy is just covering himself if it goes pete tong now.