gas hob cp12 check or not ?????

[dave8085]

hi guys, had a chat with a british gas guy the other day that turned into a heated debate ..... when i do a landlords and theres a gas hob involved i always slide the oven out and check that the pipework is rigid. he starts going on about that i shouldnt have to do it as i am checking the appliances only, i told him im also checking the gas installation up to appliances eg- 22mm boiler, ridgid to hob and not possibly a flexi connected (it has been seen before) which then he replies " so does that mean i have to lift the floor boards and follow the gas pipe ? " then i thought fair piont am i right in what i currently do ??????

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

hi guys, had a chat with a british gas guy the other day that turned into a heated debate ..... when i do a landlords and theres a gas hob involved i always slide the oven out and check that the pipework is rigid. he starts going on about that i shouldnt have to do it as i am checking the appliances only, i told him im also checking the gas installation up to appliances eg- 22mm boiler, ridgid to hob and not possibly a flexi connected (it has been seen before) which then he replies " so does that mean i have to lift the floor boards and follow the gas pipe ? " then i thought fair piont am i right in what i currently do ??????

yes you are,ask him does he keep potatoes as van stock,it has been known for bg not to do a tightness test on a service,if you dont get the spud joke do a search on here unbeliveable

 

[oldplumber]

theres a set minimum we have to do on a landlord check, if your doing more than some people deem needed whos right/wrong. Your the one signing the ticket, do as much or more than required if you feel its needed then you cant go wrong, just make sure you get paid enough though.

That my one positive response for the year, ok M

 

[kirkgas]

yes you are,ask him does he keep potatoes as van stock,it has been known for bg not to do a tightness test on a service,if you dont get the spud joke do a search on here unbeliveable

show me where it is mandatory to do a TT on a service visit for a private customer

 

[dave8085]

so let me get this right if you do a landlords cert on monday. i am called out tuesday to a reported gas leak find it undeneath the gas hod due to a tap flexi connected !!! will you be in the clear after sighning the cp12 ?????

its not mandatory why did gasman bring this into my question ??????

 

[Puddle]

Well you are not really looking if a hob is fitted by with a rigid pipe work or a cooker hose,if you can check this ,it is a bonus,you would be looking for a accessible gas isolation for that appliance,now we should not be fitting behind the fitted oven but in unit at side and checked quite easily however many are behind oven,which really is no use or ornament for the normal punter to use if required
If I can not see gas isolation/gas cock without removing oven,I just put on report 'no visible gas isolation valve fitted to hob'
If I can remove oven easily,although I do not need to,I remove and check pipe work,if isolation there report ' gas isolation in unaccesible position behind cooker'
When I first started doing reports,I used to remove all the ovens even though did not need to as only takes and few minutes
However kitchens are a lot cheaper now and some fall apart by just looking at them,you can end up spending 1/2 hr refitting bogged on bottom wooden sections or trying to refit ovens thats been wedged on bits of wood inside unit and if they are not fitted right it comes back down to you
So as I do not need to remove ,as oven classed as a fixed appliance.only do as said above if can see no problems

so let me get this right if you do a landlords cert on monday. i am called out tuesday to a reported gas leak find it undeneath the gas hod due to a tap flexi connected !!! will you be in the clear after sighning the cp12 ?????

its not mandatory why did gasman bring this into my question ??????

Yes

How many boilers do you go to above the work top, with all pipe work boxed in,maybe with a unscrewable front for access to filling loop, you do not go opening it up to check pipework

Can not speak for Gasman,but would think he has questioned this because he does jobs correctly and does not sherk his responsibilities and you will find that sometimes that means going above regs and as said as ,most of the time it only takes a few minutes so why not do it

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

so let me get this right if you do a landlords cert on monday. i am called out tuesday to a reported gas leak find it undeneath the gas hod due to a tap flexi connected !!! will you be in the clear after sighning the cp12 ?????

its not mandatory why did gasman bring this into my question ??????

why do you think the form asks you if a tightness test has been carried out? its good practice and everybody should be doing a tightness on a service,perhaps its the way i was taught but I always do one,and you should do it to know the full state of play in the property,at the end of the day once you sign that form you take responsibility for that property,if your happy doing that crack on,but i wouldent

 

[dave8085]

sorry gas man didnt mean to bring tt into topic , i am more concerned about a tap flexi being connected to a gas hob, and a writtn cp12 has been issued by someone statint the appliances are safe to use???

 

[Puddle]

show me where it is mandatory to do a TT on a service visit for a private customer

well this is true,you just have to check any joints are sound that you have worked on
But on a service you are going to check gas rates,working and standing pressures,so what is the point of not doing a tightness test unless you are trying to get out of any other potential dangerous problems that are at the property
I thought the basis of all this gas safe stuff was to increase the safe use of gas
and you can not get anymore basic than checking the gas supply is sound/tight
Before the regs came out and when the regs first came out ,the first thing you did when you walked into a property and the last thing you did was to carry out a tightness test
Now they have gradually changed that,why,time saved more important over safety ? keeping costs down over safety?something has happened to change stance and it is not safety related

 

[newbie1]

imho tt is an absolute must when doing any check or work for 2 reasons
1/customer cannot claim that ""it was fine before you came now find my leak"" you will have no alternative but to comply
2/how can you leave a property after cp12 or any work and be sure that there is no gas leaks regardless of whether you have caused them surely as an engineer no 1 priority is safety(and getting paid)
whats important is you are happy that you have left that property safe and if that means doing a bit extra then fine after all are we saying we want to do the least amount of checks we can get away with doesnt seem much of an advert for standards does it

 

[dave8085]

thanks for your replys guys, i think i will carry on as i do and quickly slide the oven out to check for ridgid pipe and gas iso valve. bg guy can carry on and do as little as he has to ! i do understand time is money but surely going that extra step further for your custamer will be rewarding in the long run. once again thanks for your responses.

 

[Puddle]

thanks for your replys guys, i think i will carry on as i do and quickly slide the oven out to check for ridgid pipe and gas iso valve. bg guy can carry on and do as little as he has to ! i do understand time is money but surely going that extra step further for your custamer will be rewarding in the long run. once again thanks for your responses.

Think you have made a wise choice,as said time is money but the things we are talking about here take 5 mins,you can spend more than that trying to turn into the traffic at the end of the road

 

[GreenArmy]

Cant believe what ive just read. Are people saying that a service gets done without carrying out a tightness test?

 

[newbie1]

not me just the lazy ones who want to do bare minimum

 

[fuzzy]

Cant believe what ive just read. Are people saying that a service gets done without carrying out a tightness test?

I was always under the impression that walking inot any customers property and working on any gas appiance you assume responsibility for gas tightness. therefore, always carry out a test before you start and if there is a drop you find it before starting work? is this wrong?

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

I was always under the impression that walking inot any customers property and working on any gas appiance you assume responsibility for gas tightness. therefore, always carry out a test before you start and if there is a drop you find it before starting work? is this wrong?

no its right,we take responsabilty as the last competent person to visit

 

[fuzzy]

no its right,we take responsabilty as the last competent person to visit

Then we must complete a tightness test before and after work

 

[Puddle]

no its right,we take responsabilty as the last competent person to visit

No you do not any more, that is what has changed,you are responsible for just the appliance you have worked on,if you work on a boiler in the kitchen ,break a gas joint all you have to do is check that joint nothing else,if gas is pooring out the gas fire in the front room,thats officially not your problem any more unless pointed out to you or you smell it
So us people doing tightness tests are taking on extra responsibilities which we do not have to do and there is no way the big boys are going to do that,as said,time money over safety

We are going to get alot of changes over next few years,as the powers that be in,you guessed it,in Europe,are going through all the regs and trying to make standard throughout the union

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

No you do not any more, that is what has changed,you are responsible for just the appliance you have worked on,if you work on a boiler in the kitchen ,break a gas joint all you have to do is check that joint nothing else,if gas is pooring out the gas fire in the front room,thats officially not your problem any more unless pointed out to you or you smell it

when did they change it?somebody got a large fine not that long back for servicing a boiler but he wasnt told there was a flueless water heater in the kitchen it put occupants in hospital; and the hse done the rgi for not checking

 

[fuzzy]

No you do not any more, that is what has changed,you are responsible for just the appliance you have worked on,if you work on a boiler in the kitchen ,break a gas joint all you have to do is check that joint nothing else,if gas is pooring out the gas fire in the front room,thats officially not your problem any more unless pointed out to you or you smell it
So us people doing tightness tests are taking on extra responsibilities which we do not have to do and there is no way the big boys are going to do that,as said,time money over safety

We are going to get alot of changes over next few years,as the powers that be in,you guessed it,in Europe,are going through all the regs and trying to make standard throughout the union

when did it change and how where we told?

 

[GreenArmy]

Then we must complete a tightness test before and after work

Yes (and let-by)

 

[Puddle]

when did they change it?somebody got a large fine not that long back for servicing a boiler but he wasnt told there was a flueless water heater in the kitchen it put occupants in hospital; and the hse done the rgi for not checking

When they exactly changed rule,I do not know,as I still do tightness test before and after so does not interest me in using new rules but have checked last year and is correct
Often in these cases there is more than meets the eye,maybe they had seen it or occupants had mentioned something or he was doing as gas check and missed appliance ect
We are talking about tightness test,you have never been responsible for all appliances in property from just servicing one,as long as you have not seen it or have reason to believe anything is wrong,you do not go in every room after replacing a thermocouple and check if any appliances and ok

We all work or may work with regs way behind, as ref publications are apparently allowed to be up 6 months out of date, add that to when you read, you can be quite easily be quite far behind
Gas Safe has improved this by placing changes on their web site
I find myself checking every few weeks now

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

no thats fair enough,but we still have a duty of care

 

[GreenArmy]

when did they change it?somebody got a large fine not that long back for servicing a boiler but he wasnt told there was a flueless water heater in the kitchen it put occupants in hospital; and the hse done the rgi for not checking

Exactly gas man, lets not forget our responsibility to carry out the minimum criteria we should apply when we encounter gas appliances on which NO 'gas work' is undertaken. See Technical Bulletin 012 on Gas Safe website.

 

[fuzzy]

When they exactly changed rule,I do not know,as I still do tightness test before and after so does not interest me in using new rules but have checked last year and is correct
Often in these cases there is more than meets the eye,maybe they had seen it or occupants had mentioned something or he was doing as gas check and missed appliance ect
We are talking about tightness test,you have never been responsible for all appliances in property from just servicing one,as long as you have not seen it or have reason to believe anything is wrong,you do not go in every room after replacing a thermocouple and check if any appliances and ok

We all work or may work with regs way behind, as ref publications are apparently allowed to be up 6 months out of date, add that to when you read, you can be quite easily be quite far behind
Gas Safe has improved this by placing changes on their web site
I find myself checking every few weeks now

To do a tightness test we must turn off the gas at some point. Therefore we must re-establish supplies to the other appliances, when we do that we have to at least give them a visual check for any signs of spillage or such like.
I think the regs state we must test to the closest valve up and downstreem. that is usually the ECV, so if we run to the letter of the law as i interpret it, yes we have to follow the re-establishing supplies on all appliances for the simplest of jobs. Isnt that why we are so highly trained(lol) and charge a decent rate(double lol)

 

[stevetheplumber]

the upshot of all this is fit as many gas cocks as possible which will make life easier for us all in future

 

[kirkgas]

not me just the lazy ones who want to do bare minimum

just to clarify my stand on this, I quoted the law, not necerssarily what I do, but there are companies out there who comply with the law, albeit a mimimum it is their choice/contract agreement with client and not our decision, if they go above the law and find problems the client might not pay to have the work rectified so that leaves the super duper gas engineer with a problem of having isolated a gas supply that he shouldn'r have touched, as an example and sure to cause more outrage!! you do a TT on existing install, U6 meter, no smell or report of gas leak, you find 2mb drop, of those who have commented on poor standards of others, do you disconnect all appliances and prove the drop is on the carcass then have to repair or isolate, costing the customer money and inconvenience or do you comply with the law and leave the appliances on, my interpretation of allowable drop rate on existing install with existing appliances is that i can report as i find, i ALWAYS leave the appliances connected, report the 2mb drop on my paperwork, then advise the landlord/owner that further investigation could be costly and let them make the decision, also on some CP1/12 type forms it only asks for tightness test PASS/FAIL, not that any drop is recorded, I ALWAYS record any drop found so that the landlord/owner gets to decide what further action if any is carried out, a lot of people would find the 2mb drop and simply put PASS

I was always under the impression that walking inot any customers property and working on any gas appiance you assume responsibility for gas tightness. therefore, always carry out a test before you start and if there is a drop you find it before starting work? is this wrong?

yes you are wrong, read IGEUP1/B or tightness test procedure in your training book, there are set criteria where a TT must be done, but not every time you work on gas, but as is beoing discussed here it can be seen as best practice

To do a tightness test we must turn off the gas at some point. Therefore we must re-establish supplies to the other appliances, when we do that we have to at least give them a visual check for any signs of spillage or such like.
I think the regs state we must test to the closest valve up and downstreem. that is usually the ECV, so if we run to the letter of the law as i interpret it, yes we have to follow the re-establishing supplies on all appliances for the simplest of jobs. Isnt that why we are so highly trained(lol) and charge a decent rate(double lol)

the regs state we should test back to the nearest valve, when working on a gas fire as an example is is acceptable to disconnect the fire at the pedestal, remove the fire, refit and spray broken joints back to the pedestal with LDF, this fully complies with all relevant gas regs

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

just to clarify my stand on this, I quoted the law, not necerssarily what I do, but there are companies out there who comply with the law, albeit a mimimum it is their choice/contract agreement with client and not our decision, if they go above the law and find problems the client might not pay to have the work rectified so that leaves the super duper gas engineer with a problem of having isolated a gas supply that he shouldn'r have touched, as an example and sure to cause more outrage!! you do a TT on existing install, U6 meter, no smell or report of gas leak, you find 2mb drop, of those who have commented on poor standards of others, do you disconnect all appliances and prove the drop is on the carcass then have to repair or isolate, costing the customer money and inconvenience or do you comply with the law and leave the appliances on, my interpretation of allowable drop rate on existing install with existing appliances is that i can report as i find, i ALWAYS leave the appliances connected, report the 2mb drop on my paperwork, then advise the landlord/owner that further investigation could be costly and let them make the decision, also on some CP1/12 type forms it only asks for tightness test PASS/FAIL, not that any drop is recorded, I ALWAYS record any drop found so that the landlord/owner gets to decide what further action if any is carried out, a lot of people would find the 2mb drop and simply put PASS



yes you are wrong, read IGEUP1/B or tightness test procedure in your training book, there are set criteria where a TT must be done, but not every time you work on gas, but as is beoing discussed here it can be seen as best practice




the regs state we should test back to the nearest valve, when working on a gas fire as an example is is acceptable to disconnect the fire at the pedestal, remove the fire, refit and spray broken joints back to the pedestal with LDF, this fully complies with all relevant gas regs

fine,but i do go further when safety is concerned,tightness is the first thing i do,above the law i know,but i have a conscience,i can sleep at night ,thats what makes a gas engineer

 

[kirkgas]

fine,but i do go further when safety is concerned,tightness is the first thing i do,above the law i know,but i have a conscience,i can sleep at night ,thats what makes a gas engineer

what do you do in the scenario that i gave re finding a leak

i too am a good gas engineer, but i also know the law/regs and have to comply with my clients and contract restrictions

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

what do you do in the scenario that i gave re finding a leak

i too am a good gas engineer, but i also know the law/regs and have to comply with my clients and contract restrictions

and i am not suggesting your not!,but safety is paramount a tt takes seconds or if we want to be pedantic 2 minutes,better to know the state of play than to walk away if you find a leak you make safe,advise the customer and if they give permission you sort it out and bill them accordingly

 

[fuzzy]

It seems we are debating a few small interpretations of the regs, I always test for tightness and build this into my working time. I tell the customer that if i find a drop i will not start work on whatever until it is found and corrected. If this aint the correct interpretation then fine but its the way i do it

 

[gakmonkey]

the upshot of all this is fit as many gas cocks as possible which will make life easier for us all in future

You already do this with water so why not gas I always put gas cocks before an appliance.

 

[InterGAS]

I cant really accept that someone would sign off a service without doing a TT.
What part of if you fiddle with combustion or gas TT before and after is confusing?
A TT Should always be done on any service and CP12.

If the Hob is burning crisp and there are no problem above or around it and the soundness test is fine and yeh I mean 0 drop never mind the allowed drop, you dont really want to be leaving any drop, its more work for you and most of northern gas networks confuse themselves with this I spent many time arguing the toss about this and find it funny they think your allowed 4mbr on pipework.
Anyhow for CP12 on hob I would agree with the british gas guy, how far do you go.
Its all about covering your bum, do what you feel you should do but for me, I would not expect to check pipework behind an electric oven, its a question of how far to do you go.
what if you find a 2mb drop do you put it down to the old appliances or start to cap and rule out pipework, it does not need to be done, but something happens and its on pipework and you signed it off as okay?
I would be more worried about that than little ECV or cooker hose on hob.
0 drop only screw the poor customers pocket money, they will be the ones claiming against you if it all goes bang, I find it insane that this regulation still stands.

If your do really want to start removing ovens ect.. make sure you finish your purge after your TT, wash them greasy hands and think about signing off any drop.

 

[chelsea]

when ever i come accross a gas hob with a flexi hose i just tell the customers that this cannot be used anymore and has to be rigid pipe work with a gas cock(gas isolation valve)

as for tightness test i do them before i start work and let by once then do a tightness test at the end of the job,its just good practice to know that there are no leaks before and after the work is completed

when i do a cp12 i always do a TT and let by and always insist that the boiler be serviced too and do all the inspections.

Landlord certs are only as good on the day they were issued,i don't know who is going to go in after me and mess about with such appliances or do any alterations,as long as i stick to the gas regs thats all i'm concerned about that i have done my job properly.

as far as i'm concerned as long as there are no leaks and the appliance is working as it should with all the relevent test such as a gas rate check as per the M.I's then i believe you have nothing to worry about.

 

[stevetheplumber]

since most hobs these days have very few identifing names on them i end up taking the oven out to find the label under the hob so i can fill in the formwould it be correct to just put unknown ?