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I think the OP has a good point and we must start to understand the impact of thousands of training centres selling courses to those who believe that setting up a plumbing/gas business is viable in a depression.

Its not a new phenomena - in late nineteenth/early twentieth century New York, there was a battle between plumbing unions and a college which set up to train brickies and plumbers without the need for them to time-serve (in the depression era). The paper was named 'Plumbing the origins of American vocationalism' Taylor & Francis Online :: Plumbing the Origins of American Vocationalism - Labor History - Volume 37, Issue 2

At that time, the unions stepped-in to argue that the safety of people's health was being risked, and there was a compromise - that students did theory in college and practical training at work - this was the foundation of our current system, which is based on American behaviourism. Depressions and recessions throw up get-rich schemes and enterprises to con the unwary and desperate.

The currrent system of allowing people on gas courses with little experience is folly of the highest order - I certainly believe that as crafts-people we learn things that are not necessarily taught - which means what is taught is not necessarily learned or practiced.

I would refer to the current system of education and training as a delusion, and one that working people and those who are desperate to work, have bought into.

There is much more to this than meets the eye, and I hope this post gives some food for thought.
 
In a slightly different vein, to the OPs original comment about being too cheap, lets not forget the ones that are trying to blatantly rip off people.

Job today was to cut and cap a 15mm feed to a fire. Tee'd off of main 22mm pipe in cupboard right next to the fire, that also housed the meter.

So,Tightness test, remove and cap meter, cut and solder cap on, cooldown time, refit meter, test purge and light other appliance(boiler)

Was in there for a grand total of 28 minutes. Charged ÂŁ35. The lady had another quote from someone else...... ÂŁ150 plus vat.

Either I am too too cheap or the other guy had no scruples etc

Graham

I would have personally charged ÂŁ50 for that work, wouldnt go any less than ÂŁ40
 
In a slightly different vein, to the OPs original comment about being too cheap, lets not forget the ones that are trying to blatantly rip off people.

Job today was to cut and cap a 15mm feed to a fire. Tee'd off of main 22mm pipe in cupboard right next to the fire, that also housed the meter.

So,Tightness test, remove and cap meter, cut and solder cap on, cooldown time, refit meter, test purge and light other appliance(boiler)

Was in there for a grand total of 28 minutes. Charged ÂŁ35. The lady had another quote from someone else...... ÂŁ150 plus vat.

Either I am too too cheap or the other guy had no scruples etc

Graham

Ansawer is that you are far too cheap - min ÂŁ 50. With all the current costs of been self employed you imho should not charge any less than two hours time for any job to allow travelling, invoicing, the time at some point you took to get your cap etc and the 28mins plus you were there - even at this unless you are in the ÂŁ50 hr bracket you will still not be retiring anytime soon.
 
i'd love to watch someone do a cp12 within 10 minutes..

its 5 minutes just drop testing and letby at the gas meter, 3min drop, 1 min let and another min getting set up, another 5 min saying hello and pulling the tools in and filling in a cp12.. im guessing while he is drop testing he is also looking at the appliance and jotting down its details with out checking anything..


i knew of a company that is now shut down that used to write down the form in the van, then pretty much walk in and out of the property without doing anything...

the letting agent started using me and i think the tenants started getting annoyed at how long i'd be testing things for and if their was faults, they'd get even more annoyed.. i think the most of them are getting used to be staying around an hour now though..

im happy most of the lads in this area charge an ok amount..well i say this area, i drive 25miles to work but i live in the sticks, ive found most people in this area dont like paying much but the odd job i have done, like servicing the back boiler round the corner, the local plumber he had used had never serviced the back boiler before and left it in a dangerous way and i find that a lot with homes in small towns, most of the work is not good and plumbers i think must charge more, i never seem to get any work where i live, im probably charging too much.. 25 an hour..

im sure these types of plumbers think they can get away with anything because of where they live, in the sticks, they charge less but dont do a good job.. i dont get it though because everythings more expensive living here, like food and diesel
 
I agree Leo21, obviously kirkgas has no ambition I wonder how he gets off paying no mortgage or rent as its obvious he never bought his own house charging so little.

Maybe also he has little outgoings because he has little incomings lol.
 
I agree Leo21, obviously kirkgas has no ambition I wonder how he gets off paying no mortgage or rent as its obvious he never bought his own house charging so little.

Maybe also he has little outgoings because he has little incomings lol.

Lol read some of kirks posts if your half as good you will do all right but doubt it with that attitude towards people
Ps kirk could probably buy and sell you ten fold lol
 
Lol read some of kirks posts if your half as good you will do all right but doubt it with that attitude towards people
Ps kirk could probably buy and sell you ten fold lol

Probably or probably not, his first post on this thread showed a poor attitude in my opinion !
 
Probably or probably not, his first post on this thread showed a poor attitude in my opinion !

And yours showed a bad attitude
Prices are for the individual to decide what they want to earn no one is going to know better than them so for us to say its to expensive or to cheap is not fair IMHO and different areas will cost different prices
 
The market in which we are in is overcrowded and extremely competitive. Prices have dropped dramatically over the past 5 years. But there is no way around it! The government demanded more engineers the colleges opened up and lined there pockets with gold! I do my best to provide a service I am proud of! It will be a tough couple of years but I believe only the good will come out still trading! Stick with it!
 
Hmm! A small company I worked for who had been doing HA work for years got seen off by the big boys. The HA got told by HSE that their housing stock of thousands of houses all required safety certificates each year all dated within six weeks of the previous certificate. The little guys could not handle it, to much work, and the logistics of probably having 20 odd small guys all doing a bit each probably seemed to complicated to the HA Admin.
So the big companies stepped in and offered a gas service and central heating repair service all in for a set price. The price was so low you could not compete per unit. The bigger companies I think were betting that out of thousands of houses at ÂŁ100 per house in 12 months beside the gas service cost you would probably only get a repair call from about 60% leaving the other 40% as profit after the gas service.
 
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Hmm! A small company I worked for who had been doing HA work for years got seen off by the big boys. The HA got told by HSE that their housing stock of thousands of houses all required safety certificates each year all dated within six weeks of the previous certificate. The little guys could not handle it, to much work, and the logistics of probably having 20 odd small guys all doing a bit each probably seemed to complicated to the HA Admin.
So the big companies stepped in and offered a gas service and central heating repair service all in for a set price. The price was so low you could not compete per unit. The bigger companies I think were betting that out of thousands of houses at ÂŁ100 per house in 12 months beside the gas service cost you would probably only get a repair call from about 60% leaving the other 40% as profit after the gas service.

I should imagine that is what 2 large companies that have gone bang in the last 2 years though it didnt work out too good for them ( My local housing association used both of them) and all they got was shoddy work. When they came round to service my boiler it made me laugh (casing off casing back on all good bye)
 
Made no difference they got the work small company went bust even with a few private customers. The HA's where small companies bread and butter. As far as I know the HA's still use big companies. I rather think what the HA's concentrate on is writing up good detailed work specifications and inspection regimes to make sure work is of a good quality.
 
I worked for HA's for many years, and it was bread & butter work.
The problem I found was a combination of cheap gas service contracts, schedules of rates and cash-flow.

The housing associations themselves don't seem as concerned about quality of work as long as the paperwork is spot on.
 
Got to agree mountainman. I found they do not seem so concerned about quality, especially GSR work, they know they can hold the GSR guys responsible if something goes wrong. But they can still put pressure on the GSR over prices. They do of course have to have all the landlords paperwork in order.
 
HA 's dont give a tinkers about safety all they want is the right paperwork to keep them out of the do do when it hits the fan i dont think any oine should be visiting someopnes house and completing a task for under ÂŁ50 take a look at what most large companies would charge
 
Made no difference they got the work small company went bust even with a few private customers. The HA's where small companies bread and butter. As far as I know the HA's still use big companies. I rather think what the HA's concentrate on is writing up good detailed work specifications and inspection regimes to make sure work is of a good quality.

I dont disagree the larger companies have somebody who spends all of his time getting contracts in and the housing association are not worried as long as they get their cert saying its all safe that means they are covered the company is covered and the person who gets into trouble is the person who sign it off saying it was fine.

What I was getting at is that these companies are cutting it that fine to get these contracts that they get into trouble for it financially as they do have large overheads then all of a sudden they go pear shaped.
 
you cannot dictate anyons price structure, its not your business, as you may have more overheads than them, i have no mortgage, very little in the way of outgoings, and enough cash in the bank, so if i want to charge ÂŁ30 for 45 mins work thats my business, however if you have proof that the whole safety check & service was carried out in 10 minutes, speak to the letting agent (you wont get any joy there) then try your luck with GSR (you wont get any joy there either unfortunately as there needs to be a problem and a report/invite made to GSR by the customer) obviously as i work in training i get drawn to the new start posts etc, flooding the market, and raping the market being 2 of the most recent, how many additional gas engineers have been added to you GSR register in your area in the last year? and of those how many are qualified competant engineers who have went SE and how many are new starts to the industry, i have a rough idea how many from Glasgow/Lanarkshire/West of Scotland have went through the bpec gas Foundation Course, but with all due respect i bet you dont, it isnt just new starts to the gas industry who are causing the problem, everyone is skint and therefore cutting back, talk to mechanics and ask how many services got done this year as oppossed to last, same with other trades as well, its a world recession, so cash is being kept for emergencies, and unfortunately boiler services have never and will never be deemed an emergency,
PS as you were discussing the work with an agent, can i assume you are self emplyed? if so do you mind answering why you are self employed as oppossed to emplyed, and whether you are a time served gas engineer or a time served plumber who sat ACS
cheers

but what happens when you get married and have 2 children and want to get a house of your own, will you be able to afford to do all these things?
And if you put your prices up, you will struggle as you will lloose all your customers who expect the same price as they used to pay
 
but what happens when you get married and have 2 children and want to get a house of your own, will you be able to afford to do all these things?
And if you put your prices up, you will struggle as you will lloose all your customers who expect the same price as they used to pay

Yes I can afford my own house I'm married only 1 child and just in process buying a building site to build new house
Your prices are your business work out what you think is a wage you would like from each job and go from there I believe if your to greedy then it don't matter if your the best plumber in world your not going to get it nowadays but there is still money to be made if the customer is thinking they getting value for money
 
Yes Value for money is the game. if you just want to be a Plumber or GSR then feel you can sit back and let people give you money just because you are what you are, then your more likely to fail than succeed.

A customer is a person who is looking for fair treatment not exploitation.
 
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