Cold Radiators

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Cold Radiators

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lucolivia

Hi
I hope you can help! We had a Vaillant EcoTec plus 630 installed just over two years ago. We've recently extended the house and added 5 new radiators, some small and some larger and the total is now 15 radiators. There are two that refuse to warm up and most of the others are warmer at the top than the bottom. Our plumber has apparently balanced the system but he's running out of ideas!
Can you help please?
Thanks ;)
 
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lucolivia said:
It's very clever indeed...I learned a lot yesterday...I'm thinking of becoming Tony's apprentice!
Tony is an inspiration!
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Thanks Jules,


Just another day at the office, I can't imaging helping anyone better, hope you have happier times ahead now the heating sorted.


Tony
 
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Happy flyer,
I'm was just making suggestions. I'm sorry but I disagree, TBOE is still the most efficient way to pipe a radiator regardless of whether it's a one pipe system or not. As it gives a better spread of heat across the radiator. Perhaps not seen in most modern homes but in industrial and commercial buildings are still occasionally piped this way. I piped radiators in college that way and I've worked in modern buildings piped that way. If you can increase heat output with piping arrangement, perhaps you can reduce heat emitter size?
 
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doitmyself said:
Except by the guys who wrote BS EN442 for measuring the output of rads, who specify TBSE when measuring! There's only about 2% difference between the three connection methods and TBSE is the best.
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Isnt it tboe? Tbse causes the heat to run down one side and not circulate within the rad.
tboe causes it to run across
 
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I agree with you 1King55, I was always told that TBOE had the highest efficiency, I would say that TBSE would have the least of the three.
 
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You chaps are right experiments show that there is approx 2% better output if you don't use BBOE, but pray tell who does have a pipe running up the side of a radiator to the valve, another point if you do this and add a thermostatic valve the heat convected up from the stand pipe will prematurely shut down the valve, see if you can find a glossy rad brochure with TBOE connections.

Tony
 
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Incorrect happy flyer, you fit the thermostatic radiator valve horizontally for exactly that reason. The phial in the valve hangs clear of the pipe and so isn't tricked by the heat from the pipe. If you were to fit the valve vertically you would be correct (which is a common mistake). As to whole has a pipe up the side of their radiator, the answer to that would be people looking to get max efficiency out of their radiators.
 
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They are talking commercial, and you are right and forgot to add if you fit the TRV with the head horizontally you will negate the convention current up the pipe, another alternative is to use a remote capillary, but all this costly and messy, and they can get damage easily, commercially we tend to have a single zone valve controlled by a BMS and a room sensor, usually with a 3 Deg C adjust band 1.5 up and 1.5 down from agreed set points.

Owning and operating commercial HVAC system is expensive and maintenance must be taken into consideration too, in a school there is now a tenancy not to install radiators with TRV, they get damaged and messed with, UFH is pride of place no one can fiddle and even quality bespoke dwellings do use radiators.

I have designed 6 bespoke house in the past 10 years and not one radiator anywhere, the spec building will take some time to catch up but I think they will.

We have in recent years seen power sockets lift up higher, you could put the rad valve TBOE so people don't need to bend down, I have electronic rad valves on my system, don't need to bend down, once they are set you never need to adjust them again, extremely accurate temp control, they even make wireless TRV and the World moves on, as for 2% extra output using TBOE we will need the tweak the ABV or use the next size boiler up one. :bigcry:

Tony
 
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1king55 said:
Ive done the rads in my parents house tboe. For one its more efficiant and also easier to get the rad off.
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Look. its whatever floats your boat if you fit TBOE when you come to take the rad off, there is a lot better change of air going in and water coming out and all that black crap on the carpet, if I even get my tools out the shed, I will still use BBOE.

Here's an idea try piping up TBOE with 15mm plastic, will it stay straight I wonder and the grand kids can swing on it, or mother bang the hoover into it, never catch on up North, hell lets go back to steel, sort the men from the boys.

At least it will make you use copper for the last bits.


Tony
 
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A rad that would not look right with TBOE regardless of the 2% extra power!!!

DSCN0906.jpg
 
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Absolutely not! The rads are still working wonderfully well Tony.. A brilliant job! They booted up this evening and were all hot in less than 10 minutes. I've now decided to turn down the control!
:yes:
 
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Happy flyer,
I didn't forget to add anything. TBOE is still regarded as method of piping and is still relevant today. That was the original point, regardless of convection currents or methods of installing TRV's. TBOE still has it's place in todays world, TBOE systems are still being installed. We can debate the point all evening, but it won't change that. I agree no one in their right might would pipe a tall radiator pipe in plastic. I also agree TBOE is not often used in the home, but not often isn't never. You can't blanket disregard a pipe method based your points. As for schools, would you not need low surface temp covers anyway? Many of which encompass the pipe work and TRV and are anti tamper. I see no reason why this piping method couldn't be used in a school with the use of a low surface temp cover.
 
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Yes you right Julius, the TBOE came from way back on single pipe system, it gave you some circulating head, but to be honesty I have installed 1000 s of domestic installation in the Manchester area in the 70s and never ever used TBOE, look at all the energy have have saved humanity, now your 2% means a lot, I should get a medal. Schools yes LST, but as I say new schools and architects love UFH nothing to be seen and they mainly control the final design, HVAC engineers get dragged along with it. BMS has taken over now from TRV control and there are a number of good products that can be fitted under LST supplied with 24VAC, that shut the water supply to the rad from a central control unit, usually display on a PC in the school, no need to take covers of the adjust, you now get time, temp and occupancy control, if the room becomes silent or MW sensors are used the room can be put into setback, temp lowered when empty.

Its endless now what is going on in the controls market, TRV are crude to say the least and they only have a limited amount of time left now.


Tony
 
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1king55 said:
Isnt it tboe? Tbse causes the heat to run down one side and not circulate within the rad.
tboe causes it to run across
Click to expand...
According to the Stelrad Stars program there is no difference between TBOE and TBSE.

My info about BS EN442 specifying TBSE comes from Here. Scroll down until you see the heading "April 2000 radiator outputs change again". It's the paragraph immediately above.

I can't afford £100 to buy a copy to verify this.
 
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happyflyer said:
Look. its whatever floats your boat if you fit TBOE when you come to take the rad off, there is a lot better change of air going in and water coming out and all that black crap on the carpet, if I even get my tools out the shed, I will still use BBOE.

Here's an idea try piping up TBOE with 15mm plastic, will it stay straight I wonder and the grand kids can swing on it, or mother bang the hoover into it, never catch on up North, hell lets go back to steel, sort the men from the boys.

At least it will make you use copper for the last bits.


Tony
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You said who does it nowdays, i said i have in my parents house and also in three other houses where the owner has asked for it.
Ive done it in offices and commercial buildings too.

it's still done and it isn't ridiculous just another way to do it.

as for the last pair of jibes I'm not going to reply to that.
 
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