Cold radiators in loft

[milleniumaire]

Tried flushing the return pipe again today but no luck. It is blocked solid so I'm going to have to cut up the floor under the radiator to get access to the elbow as I'm 99% sure this is where it is blocked. Given that I'm having to cut floorboards I may bring forward my plan to add new pipes to remove the star type plumbing that currently exists.

 

[centralheatking]

Tried flushing the return pipe again today but no luck. It is blocked solid so I'm going to have to cut up the floor under the radiator to get access to the elbow as I'm 99% sure this is where it is blocked. Given that I'm having to cut floorboards I may bring forward my plan to add new pipes to remove the star type plumbing that currently exists.

Really feel for you mill... keep up with us ....chking

 

[quality]

this is only caused by all these older systems running on modern equipment

 

[loftissue]

I've now successfully cleared the return pipe from the towel rail. Had to cut up the floor boards to get access to the 90 degree connector, connecting the plastic pipe to the copper tail. To my surprise this connector wasn't the issue! When I remove it I pushed some wire into the pipe and about 0.5 metre in it hit something solid, but I was able to eventually push through it. Got lots of solid sludge on the wire! I then realise there was a straight connector at this point of blockage, so clearly the pipe inserts had provided something for the sludge to build up against. I guess pipe inserts are one of the issues with plastic piping and an advantage of copper piping where the bore doesn't get reduced.

Having cleared the blockage with wire I was then able to flush the pipes through and clean out the crud. Tonight I'll be re-connecting the towel rail, with some new valves and will push more water through to flush again and to ensure the joints are water tight. In the morning I'll re-connect the towel rail to the CH system.

Regarding the original wiring of the loft radiators and towel rail, I'm wondering if the orientation of a T connector can make any difference to the flow of water. In particular on the return side, which seems to be the worst blocked pipes. Here's what I mean:

View attachment 41572

On the left is a diagram showing the orientation of the T connectors as they were. The return from the Loft en-suite towel rail and loft 1 radiator is potentially pushing against each other and causing a resistance. Same when that (reduced?) flow hits the flow from the loft 2 radiator prior to going down the copper pipe.

I wondered if changing the orientation of these two T connectors might help the return flow as shown in the diagram on the right. In the alternate diagram the flow from the loft en-suite towel rail has an "easy path" and I wonder if the flow from loft 1 would not give as much resistance. Same with the connector from Loft 2.

Or am I talking rubbish?

Hi there, husband and I are following this thread in the hope we can fix our loft rads. We had a loft conversion installed last year and the 3 rads do not get hot, or come on ever so slightly ( radiator is warm at the top but cold from middle downwards). May we ask if you managed to fix the problem to get all 3 working correctly after flushing the blockages yourself? Thanks.

 

[centralheatking]

this is only caused by all these older systems running on modern equipment

agree totally, old boilers like my Mrs ! have water pathways thro the size of the M6 and are great and lasted 20 years plus. whereas
modern ones the pathways are clearance of a rolling ciggy *** paper. The consequences were with
old boilers a new pump, new boilers total replacement ..and intermediate component failure
centralheatking

 

[loftissue]

Hi there, husband and I are following this thread in the hope we can fix our loft rads. We had a loft conversion installed last year and the 3 rads do not get hot, or come on ever so slightly ( radiator is warm at the top but cold from middle downwards). May we ask if you managed to fix the problem to get all 3 working correctly after flushing the blockages yourself? Thanks.

We've been told to replace the 15mm plastic pipes with 22mm and have a separate flow and return from boiler to loft, instead of an extension of current heating circuit. Was this what you did? Thanks for any help.

 

[quality]

M6 standard would be 1.0mm which is large compared to most modern stuff. But that is all there is avaiable so here we go. There is not a great deal of engineering (maybe not needed) that goes into heating a house with modern stuff

 

[milleniumaire]

Hi there, husband and I are following this thread in the hope we can fix our loft rads. We had a loft conversion installed last year and the 3 rads do not get hot, or come on ever so slightly ( radiator is warm at the top but cold from middle downwards). May we ask if you managed to fix the problem to get all 3 working correctly after flushing the blockages yourself? Thanks.

If your radiators are getting warm at the top , but cold from the middle downwards, that suggests to me they are full of sludge. Have you tried removing them and flushing them through outside? Having said that, it's hard to imagine they have sludged up so much in only 1 year, so maybe flow may be the issue.

I did successfully remove the sludge from all the pipes in the loft, but it took a long time and required me to take up floorboards under the radiators so I could remove T joints/elbows to push in long pieces of wire to dislodge the incredibly hard sludge that had built up at various places within the pipe (connections) and which couldn't be removed by chemicals.

Last year I refurbished the house bathroom and installed wet underfloor heating. I needed to run a brand new flow and return to the bathroom, which is at the other end of the house to the boiler, so designed this to also provide a new flow and return for the loft. I ended up installing two new runs of 22mm pipe which provided the loop (supply and return) for the new bathroom underfloor heating manifold, but also for the loft radiators, by fitting a Honeywell 2 port valve, just after the UFH manifold supply. I also took the opportunity to modify the routing of the pipes in the loft so that it was no longer a "star", and they are now connected up in parallel i.e. one after the other. In addition to this, and at the advice of a heating engineer I use, I also had a Low Loss Header installed and an additional pump, both of which I'm sure would help with flow rates in my system.

So far, I haven't had any further issues with the loft radiators, but I also ensure their valves are always fully opened to keep water moving through them. In the Summer, when the CH isn't really being used, I tried to remember to turn it on every week or so. When I say turn it on, I mean increase the temperature of the thermostat so that there's a demand for heat and leave it like that for an hour.

My system is getting quite complicated and now looks like this:

 

[milleniumaire]

I've now successfully cleared the return pipe from the towel rail. Had to cut up the floor boards to get access to the 90 degree connector, connecting the plastic pipe to the copper tail. To my surprise this connector wasn't the issue! When I remove it I pushed some wire into the pipe and about 0.5 metre in it hit something solid, but I was able to eventually push through it. Got lots of solid sludge on the wire! I then realise there was a straight connector at this point of blockage, so clearly the pipe inserts had provided something for the sludge to build up against. I guess pipe inserts are one of the issues with plastic piping and an advantage of copper piping where the bore doesn't get reduced.

Having cleared the blockage with wire I was then able to flush the pipes through and clean out the crud. Tonight I'll be re-connecting the towel rail, with some new valves and will push more water through to flush again and to ensure the joints are water tight. In the morning I'll re-connect the towel rail to the CH system.

Regarding the original wiring of the loft radiators and towel rail, I'm wondering if the orientation of a T connector can make any difference to the flow of water. In particular on the return side, which seems to be the worst blocked pipes. Here's what I mean:

On the left is a diagram showing the orientation of the T connectors as they were. The return from the Loft en-suite towel rail and loft 1 radiator is potentially pushing against each other and causing a resistance. Same when that (reduced?) flow hits the flow from the loft 2 radiator prior to going down the copper pipe.

I wondered if changing the orientation of these two T connectors might help the return flow as shown in the diagram on the right. In the alternate diagram the flow from the loft en-suite towel rail has an "easy path" and I wonder if the flow from loft 1 would not give as much resistance. Same with the connector from Loft 2.

Or am I talking rubbish?

 

[loftissue]

If your radiators are getting warm at the top , but cold from the middle downwards, that suggests to me they are full of sludge. Have you tried removing them and flushing them through outside? Having said that, it's hard to imagine they have sludged up so much in only 1 year, so maybe flow may be the issue.

I did successfully remove the sludge from all the pipes in the loft, but it took a long time and required me to take up floorboards under the radiators so I could remove T joints/elbows to push in long pieces of wire to dislodge the incredibly hard sludge that had built up at various places within the pipe (connections) and which couldn't be removed by chemicals.

Last year I refurbished the house bathroom and installed wet underfloor heating. I needed to run a brand new flow and return to the bathroom, which is at the other end of the house to the boiler, so designed this to also provide a new flow and return for the loft. I ended up installing two new runs of 22mm pipe which provided the loop (supply and return) for the new bathroom underfloor heating manifold, but also for the loft radiators, by fitting a Honeywell 2 port valve, just after the UFH manifold supply. I also took the opportunity to modify the routing of the pipes in the loft so that it was no longer a "star", and they are now connected up in parallel i.e. one after the other. In addition to this, and at the advice of a heating engineer I use, I also had a Low Loss Header installed and an additional pump, both of which I'm sure would help with flow rates in my system.

So far, I haven't had any further issues with the loft radiators, but I also ensure their valves are always fully opened to keep water moving through them. In the Summer, when the CH isn't really being used, I tried to remember to turn it on every week or so. When I say turn it on, I mean increase the temperature of the thermostat so that there's a demand for heat and leave it like that for an hour.

My system is getting quite complicated and now looks like this:

View attachment 80253

Hi there, thanks for your comprehensive reply. We've removed the loft radiators this morning and flushed them. Not much sludge in them so back to trying other things you've mentioned. Our loft rads are added on to current heating system and someone did mention we need a 22mm pipe from boiler upto loft rads for flow and return...which we think is what you suggest? Hubby now looking at a pump. Our loft pipework is along skirting boards thankfully so no taking up floor boards but we're unsure if there could be a dent in the plastic pipework going from loft bathroom to bedrooms one and two. It's driving us mad, especially paying out soooooo much money for extra bedrooms!