Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement Systems

[Foodface]

I've submitted it now (took me all morning), explained the need for Part L and how much I estimate it would cost extra. The quote was roughly 3,500 without as there is no existing heating system in the property so it would push it well in 4,000 mark. If they opt not too then I'll get it in writing on a pre job agreement, with a signature. It's tricky this stuff, especially considering the extra wiring involved (I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

 

[chris watkins]

(I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

Sorry but don't understand why you need a sing / dancing system & can't see how the manufacturer could make things any simpler, we already have plug & play controls systems.

 

[Foodface]

I'm not saying you need an all dancing system, just saying that it's more attractive to fit a wireless system when you are not a qualified electrician (which many people aren't).

Personally I think the manufacturers could integrate zoning valves into the boilers and make the "plug and play" options more assessable for the new regulations. As previously explained that some of the plug and play devices only come in pairs, which means you would have to buy two sets of controllers/receivers (or more) to zone. Just saying they could make it easier and more assessable which would also cut down the task of getting the customers on board, as the they would have no option if everything was integrated into the boiler already.

Just my opinion.

 

[chris watkins]

Most of us are not qualified electrician but have had training & would say most are competent to work on heating control systems. Can I suggest the Honeywell 1day training course & some reading. An understanding of electrical control systems is now a very important part of any heating engineer work nowday's & it is only going to get more complex with time.

P.S. some boiler manufactures have incorporated controls within there system boilers but this has not proven popular due to the increase in pipework required & the in-flexibility of system design.
In this game things that appear to be simple rarely are, which may be a good thing for those that know & a bad thing for those that don't.

 

[peteheat]

If the boiler manufacturers build in the zoning systems it makes their product less flexible, it also leads to the installer and home owner being held to ransom by the manufacturers system should it break down or have faults in the software.

We did use a boiler where all controls were managed by the boiler motherboard, the theory was great in reality it was a disaster, it took them 5 years to iron out most of the software problems (an ongoing project).

As far as anyone who used the system is concerned their is nothing like a boiler that does its job of producing the heat and we remain in control of how the heat is distributed, it is much easier to replace a faulty programmer even for another make / model than it is to change out the boiler.

It is easier for all concerned to be able to add or subtract zone valves, TRV's, thermostats as needed by each individual job instead of trying to make a pre-set / pre-programmed boiler do all the jobs needed some of which it may not have been designed to do.

 

[doitmyself]

I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" ... The house is a small two up two down

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

 

[peteheat]

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

Depends on what you think is value for money.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

Customers are better informed today and tend to know that heat rises and ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes, I doubt there are two rooms in my house that have the same optimum temperature to the occupiers liking, we are all individuals and modern heating controls allow us to have the comfort levels that suit us.

 

[Leo21]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

 

[chris watkins]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

O for god sake let's go back to floor standing O/F boilers, as they lasted for ever.

 

[Leo21]

Love to. I wonder if you were to do a cost comparison between the life span of a floor stander to a modern boiler what would be best. One lasts thirty years and guzzles gas, or a modern condenser with a life span of six to ten years.

 

[chris watkins]

Don't wonder Leo21, work it out & let us know.
To start you off, 'A' rated = 90+% efficient - 65% O/F floor stander = 25% more efficient x average heating & hot water fuel cost for 10 years.
Look forward to your post.

 

[Leo21]

Will do when I get a mo, how's the kitchen hunting going?

 

[peteheat]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

We use Sauter controls and zone valves 5 years no quibble warranty.

Obviously plan the system, why put a zone or any other service valve under the floor where it can't be reached?

 

[Leo21]

Re: Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement System

We use Sauter controls and zone valves 5 years no quibble warranty.

Obviously plan the system, why put a zone or any other service valve under the floor where it can't be reached?

On a drop system with solid floors, other wise you'd have to double up the runs. I agree it would be bad practice. Again money talks and they,ll get fitted where evers easier for the the installer.

 

[doitmyself]

Depends on what you think is value for money.

Cost-effectiveness and value for money are not necessarily the same thing.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

The problem is that those who set the rules are only interested in one thing: reducing fuel consumption. How much it costs the punter is irrelevant.

Could you possibly be biased?

Customers ... ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Isn't that why upstairs rads are provided with TRVs (which should be set to a lower temperature in any case)?

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes

Agreed.

Zoning only works if the zones are properly separated, which means keeping all doors closed except when entering or leaving a room. There is no point zoning a house which keeps room doors open all the time (obvious cases excepted) as the upstairs rooms will get heated from downstairs, irrespective of what the TRVs are doing.

 

[peteheat]

The problem is that those who set the rules are only interested in one thing: reducing fuel consumption. How much it costs the punter is irrelevant.

Could you possibly be biased?

Zoning only works if the zones are properly separated, which means keeping all doors closed except when entering or leaving a room. There is no point zoning a house which keeps room doors open all the time (obvious cases excepted) as the upstairs rooms will get heated from downstairs, irrespective of what the TRVs are doing.

Biased?

I don't think so as I am also OFTEC and RGI (Irish version of Gas Safe) I also propose the same zoning on wood pellet, wood gasifiers etc as I do for fossil fuels, the only difference is for UFH where I use a stat in each room.

We fit the system, advise the customer as to the best way to use it, after that they must do their bit.

 

[mickie]

if you're installing a new heating system it shouldnt be too hard to fit an extra stat and zone valve, anyway i was only informed when gas safe came out to another installers job and said he hadnt zoned the floors and that he should have, if i hadnt heard that story how should i have found out?..their will be thousands of installers that dont know and will continue to not zone anything untill gas safe come out to inspect the property and tell him that he is contributing more to the worlds demise than america, china and Russia put together..

fix it or get a bigger fine than the banks miss selling you ppi..
i was just talking about this the other day, how they care more about gas installers fitting room stats than they do, cyclists being killed by trucks..

i guess they just think at least that dead girl wont be using up the earths resources anymore.

i dont quite know what an extra room thermostat will do if every radiator has a thermostat on it, which turns the radiator off when the room is up to the desired temperature, maybe the room stat knows something the radiator stat doesnt ?

 

[Leo21]

What if you used those digital Trv,s, you then would be technically zoning every room.