Boiler Stove :: Issue with consistency

[Spudney]

Hi All

I have just got my boiler stove installed "Olymberyl Aidan" 21KW and I'm happy with the look and heat from the stove to the room but when heating water and the rads its very inconsistent.

I have the pipe stat set to 45 degrees, the pump comes on and off so often that i dont get consistently hot rads (the water temp must be dropping below 45 degrees), when it works, it works great but the amount of effort loading fuel every 20 or 30 minutes, monitoring the fire etc... (I bought a Stovax magnetic flue pipe thermometer from ebay which is very handy to know how hot the stove is and if your burning at the right temp)

Could I be doing something wrong? My stove has a thermostat (Dial 0-8) and a bottom air vent and a top air vent, does anybody know the optimum air settings when buring a mixture of coal and timber, my timber is seasoned 12 months min and the coal is good quality but Im just not getting the results i expected from the boiler stove.

Could I have air or something in the system and thats whats causing the wierd inconsistent issues?

My system is a dual system, oil kero boiler outside and boiler stove inside both on an open system, boiler stove is about 10m from cylinder

I have asked my plumber but he says it trial and error at the start but I really didnt think it would be this much hastle, I just want hot rads

Please help

 

[Gray0689]

Is it 4 pipe
where is the stat positioned

 

[ecowarm]

As above we need to know how the system is connected to the stove, how is it linked to the existing system?

Regarding operation, do you not have an instruction manual? Usually for a mixture of coal and wood you open control knob to 8 and bottom air (primary air) open full to get fire started, once a good fire is going close bottom air fully and 1/4 open top air (secondary air) turn down main control until you get the required heat to rads.
If burning wood only open secondary air fully.
The pipe stat may be positioned incorrectly, pics may help us!

 

[Spudney]

hi

there are 4 outlets from the boiler stove but only two are used low one on the left cold in then high right hot water

here is a pic of hot press



pipe stat is the orange unit

just to add, i moved up the pipe stat to 55 from 45 and now the water in my cylinder is hotter but the pump comes on and off every 5 mins or so but if i put pipe stat back to 45 is comes on but stays on and then its like the pump takes the hot water from the boiler stove too quickly and the stove cant keep pace so what happens is i get slightly warm water being pumped around the rads and cylinder, end result averagely hot water but barley hot rads, i only have 7 rads turned on and this stove is ment to do 12

i have a bucket of coal in the stove right now and temp is really hot but at 55 it keep coming on going off etc...

stove (excuse the mess, making good the walls etc...)



help someone please

 

[Gray0689]

The stat is better on return
Hard to see looking on phone
But I'm hoping I'm wrong are the pipes chased in the wall or are they going into floor
Compression fittings make it look like a DIY job

 

[Gray0689]

You should have 2 x 28mm pipes on a gravity circuit to cylinder
Then 2x 22mm pipes going in to heating circuit pumped with non return valve with stat on gravity return at cylinder
What you got sounds and looks very wrong

 

[ecowarm]

Oh dear! Needs a professional to have a look and sort it out IMO

 

[Spudney]

The stat is better on return
Hard to see looking on phone
But I'm hoping I'm wrong are the pipes chased in the wall or are they going into floor
Compression fittings make it look like a DIY job

the two 28mm pipes are chased into the wall

its was done by a professional plumber, not a DIY job

 

[Spudney]

You should have 2 x 28mm pipes on a gravity circuit to cylinder
Then 2x 22mm pipes going in to heating circuit pumped with non return valve with stat on gravity return at cylinder
What you got sounds and looks very wrong

the hot pipe is t junctioned in the ceiling off to heating circuit and then 28mm hot pipe continues to cylinder as far as i could see when he was doing the job, thats why he didnt use all four pipes, should all four pipes have been used, i got 5 five quotes for this job and all 5 said that you didnt need to use 4 outlets, now im worried i was sold a lemon but why would all 5 so called pro plumbers not use the 4 pipes?

 

[Gray0689]

No you don't have to use the 4 pipes but it is better
What area are you in ?

 

[Gray0689]

It didnt sound correct in the slightest
The flow should not be teed off above stove

 

[Spudney]

im in Dublin, Ireland, use the UK forum to get a more objective view

 

[Spudney]

It didnt sound correct in the slightest
The flow should not be teed off above stove

why would all of the plumbers have mentioned to do it this way?

 

[Spudney]

It didnt sound correct in the slightest
The flow should not be teed off above stove

why should it not be teed off, so i can say it to my plumber?

 

[Gray0689]

Because it's an uncontrollable heat source it needs a gravity circuit
Direct to cylinder with expansion
Yours just don't sound right to me to be honest
I'm in the north bit far away

 

[Spudney]

Because it's an uncontrollable heat source it needs a gravity circuit
Direct to cylinder with expansion
Yours just don't sound right to me to be honest
I'm in the north bit far away

i think the T junction is for a safety outlet to rads as he did say to always have 3 rads min turned on downstairs by trv so that the hot water always had an outlet, i cant turn off heat to my downstairs zone as it is always on due to it being the safety outlet, im fine with this as i want the downstairs always hot

 

[Gray0689]

Downstairs on a gravity flow rubbish if pump fails your in trouble

 

[Spudney]

Downstairs on a gravity flow rubbish if pump fails your in trouble

what would u do if you were me, plumber is only gone a few days, what do i say to him when i call him back as we paid nearly 5k to get boiler stove in and its just not working out the way we thought

 

[Gray0689]

£5k to do what
I'm just saying it don't sound right to me
Look in the instructions from your stove and see if the correct layout has been done
But from what you have said I don't think so

 

[Spudney]

£5k to do what
I'm just saying it don't sound right to me
Look in the instructions from your stove and see if the correct layout has been done
But from what you have said I don't think so

5k euro for stove, flue, hearth, cylinder, pump, stat, pipes, fittings, plumber labour was 1200 ex vat for 3 and half days for 2 guys and included a plasterer to fix walls ceiling etc...

 

[Gray0689]

If it was done right not a bad price indeed

 

[Roberto1]

yes setup sounds very wrong.need a separate gravity circuit and central heating circuit as per the instructions that come with stove.regarding lukewarm water (stove can't keep up) you need a heat loading valve like esbe vtc 511.this will only allow stove to 'export' hot water into central heating system when it reaches >60 Celcius. Otherwise you will not only have cold rads but a cold stove which will lead to condensation of gasses and over time a clogged up chimney and danger of chimney fire.these valves make the world of difference.you also need a separate pump installed between stove and esbe to make it work well.suggest you get a plumber with qualification in wet back stoves to do proper install.

 

[peteheat]

im in Dublin, Ireland, use the UK forum to get a more objective view

Thank God I sold my last one of those stoves two years ago, I am just outside Dublin sell and install solid fuel as well as other things heating related.

As I would have told you (maybe I did) with a stove of that size you need doors wide enough for the wheel barrow to transport the fuel to the stove, the quality of the fuel is very important wet logs are a no go as water does not burn, too much coal (smokeless if in Dublin city) will burn the grate out in a fairly short time and cost a lot to run a stove that size.

the amount of effort loading fuel every 20 or 30 minutes, monitoring the fire etc...

Appears you are comparing the flow temperatures from the stove with your oil boiler it doesn't work that way, oil as a fuel has a steady output the mix of fuels you are using will at best give you an average output which you will work out with experience.

I suggest you try this:

Start the system using your oil boiler to get the rads up to temperature, while it's doing this you light the stove and get a good fire going and the stove will be taking over a pre-heated system, the temperature control on the stove will take a bit of getting used to, the more it's open the more air goes to the fire burning more fuel, for the individual case you will have to work out the optimum setting to heat the rads you want, of course the stat will close as the requested temperature is reached.

I can only see one coil in the cylinder, looks very low for a solid fuel coil which usually goes from top to bottom to dissipate the heat from the stove, it also suggests that you have no control over the heat from the oil boiler, if that is the case you will have plenty of hot water but higher fuel bills.

I suggest a flue pipe thermostat which will help you regulate the air so your flue temperature is not too hot, they are not expensive and very good at helping you refrain from over firing the stove.

An important question is where does the single wall flue change to twin wall insulated flue to go through the wall?

If the single wall flue is anywhere near the cavity wall insulation you may have a hidden problem, personally I never have a problem with a small piece of twin wall showing in the room we just spray the piece with stove paint and it's hardly noticeable.

I wouldn't have got the job because the price appears too low, and for our UK friends:

We don't have effective building control here which is why the O.P. could have received a lot of different advice from the plumbers who quoted for the job, nobody enforcing standards / regulations which are almost copy and paste of the UK regs.

 

[peteheat]

yes setup sounds very wrong.need a separate gravity circuit and central heating circuit as per the instructions that come with stove.regarding lukewarm water (stove can't keep up) you need a heat loading valve like esbe vtc 511.this will only allow stove to 'export' hot water into central heating system when it reaches >60 Celcius. Otherwise you will not only have cold rads but a cold stove which will lead to condensation of gasses and over time a clogged up chimney and danger of chimney fire.these valves make the world of difference.you also need a separate pump installed between stove and esbe to make it work well.suggest you get a plumber with qualification in wet back stoves to do proper install.

Roberto1,

The manual for that stove does not provide much (if any) instructions regarding installation.

I like the ESBE valves problem is very few plumbers here are interested in knowing what they do, all they see is a valve that increases the cost of the installation that most of their competition will not be including in their quotes.

Don't worry about the flue getting blocked up most stoves here are removed for all the wrong reasons before that becomes an issue.

Looks like a cheeky reply doesn't it?

Lucky I'm in good humor tonight or I could be ranting for hours about the poor quality of solid fuel installations in this country, trust me that is not the worst installation I know of, how about the same stove linked into a pressurised circuit?

The thread is on this web site.

 

[Roberto1]

peteheat, do a google search for Stratford Ecoboiler -operating-and-installation-manual.

it's the stove i have just fitted. It has four boiler tappings just like your boiler stove and installation with all safety features are displayed diagramatically on pages 15/16.
Like yourself I connected it up without a heat loading valve so I am bitterly familiar with that heart sinking feeling of cold radiators and this is a 30 kilowatt stove! I bought the esbe vtc 512 from stoves online for just over £100. I can tell you that was £100 well spent! Went from cold rads to rads i was too frightened to touch. I'm trying to think of a suitable analogy. Without the heat loading valve (don't have to go for a fancy one with built in pumps - i purchased a £40 pump from e-bay) it was like trying to heat a five bedroom house with tea lights. The problem with wood fired boilers is that, besides the condensation issues associated with fire being over cooled with cold radiator return, the fire dies down very quickly. Hence the firebox never gets up to temp to heat the stove body let alone the rest of the house. This leads to wasted fuel, a cold house and misery! The esbe valve or any suitable equivalent doesn't allow a drop of cold water into the stove or a drop of water out unless water inside boiler is >60C and opens fully when water is 70C. As fire dies down naturally, boiler stove still remains HOT but exports smaller volumes of HOT water into central heating circuit.After installing the esbe, a pump and check valves the stove easily takes on the 5 bed house without the gas boiler firing up at all. Not only this but it gets the rads much hotter than the 50kw gas boiler ever did - (radiator trv's are a must).

I do wish you luck but can't over emphasize the satisfaction I now feel, knowing that all the expense I have been through Is justified and I have a boiler stove that does the job I bought it for and hopefully will continue to save me money for many years to come.

 

[Roberto1]

peteheat, do a google search for Stratford Ecoboiler -operating-and-installation-manual.

it's the stove i have just fitted. It has four boiler tappings just like your boiler stove and installation with all safety features are displayed diagramatically on pages 15/16.
Like yourself I connected it up without a heat loading valve so I am bitterly familiar with that heart sinking feeling of cold radiators and this is a 30 kilowatt stove! I bought the esbe vtc 512 from stoves online for just over £100. I can tell you that was £100 well spent! Went from cold rads to rads i was too frightened to touch. I'm trying to think of a suitable analogy. Without the heat loading valve (don't have to go for a fancy one with built in pumps - i purchased a £40 pump from e-bay) it was like trying to heat a five bedroom house with tea lights. The problem with wood fired boilers is that, besides the condensation issues associated with fire being over cooled with cold radiator return, the fire dies down very quickly. Hence the firebox never gets up to temp to heat the stove body let alone the rest of the house. This leads to wasted fuel, a cold house and misery! The esbe valve or any suitable equivalent doesn't allow a drop of cold water into the stove or a drop of water out unless water inside boiler is >60C and opens fully when water is 70C. As fire dies down naturally, boiler stove still remains HOT but exports smaller volumes of HOT water into central heating circuit.After installing the esbe, a pump and check valves the stove easily takes on the 5 bed house without the gas boiler firing up at all. Not only this but it gets the rads much hotter than the 50kw gas boiler ever did - (radiator trv's are a must).

I do wish you luck but can't over emphasize the satisfaction I now feel, knowing that all the expense I have been through Is justified and I have a boiler stove that does the job I bought it for and hopefully will continue to save me money for many years to come.

 

[Roberto1]

sorry, last post should have been addressed to Spudney, not peteheat (i'm new to forums) lol

 

[Spudney]

Thank God I sold my last one of those stoves two years ago, I am just outside Dublin sell and install solid fuel as well as other things heating related.

What similar stove would you have suggested?

Also what would you have charged to install, how is €400 a day cheap for a plumber and sidekick?

I got 5 quotes for this job and all suggested doing this way and they were guys with 25+ years of experience? are Irish plumbers that bad?

My plumber is coming back this evening and recons its air in the system or a broken valve, his words not mine so i will have to wait see, this did all work for the first two days but then the rads stopped heating up.

 

[peteheat]

What similar stove would you have suggested?

Also what would you have charged to install, how is €400 a day cheap for a plumber and sidekick?

I got 5 quotes for this job and all suggested doing this way and they were guys with 25+ years of experience? are Irish plumbers that bad?

My plumber is coming back this evening and recons its air in the system or a broken valve, his words not mine so i will have to wait see, this did all work for the first two days but then the rads stopped heating up.

My choice for the Dublin market are Hunter, stratford ecoboiler etc, the reason being the grates are designed to burn coal which tends to be the fuel easiest available in Dublin.

My rates are private between me and the customer has been that way for over thirty years in business, I know somethings should change but I find that customers prefer the privacy as well as me.

Please bear in mind that we have seen very little of the installation, your plumber should know the job he did better than any of us as we are working off two photos and a brief description of the work carried out.

Hope all goes well for you.

 

[Gray0689]

What similar stove would you have suggested?

Also what would you have charged to install, how is €400 a day cheap for a plumber and sidekick?

I got 5 quotes for this job and all suggested doing this way and they were guys with 25+ years of experience? are Irish plumbers that bad?

My plumber is coming back this evening and recons its air in the system or a broken valve, his words not mine so i will have to wait see, this did all work for the first two days but then the rads stopped heating up.

No I have seen some great Irish plumbers but unfortunately there really is a lot of awful ones too imho

 

[Spudney]

No I have seen some great Irish plumbers but unfortunately there really is a lot of awful ones too imho

Mybe my Irish plumber isnt so bad after all, he came round this evening and stayed with us while the stove heated up and discovered that replacing a faulty valve and a faulty pipe stat have fixed all our issues.

Issue one was no hot water when kerosene was on but the new valve fixed that, the hot water was being stoped entering the coil hence no hot water in cylinder, easy fix.

The second was a faulty pipe stat (IMIT orange one, replaced with like IMIT) on the boiler inflow (hot) and now i have 12 piping hot rads (not far off kerosene hot) needless to say im delighted and panicked too early, too many horror stories online me thinks!!

Thanks guys for all your help and suggestions, im now nice and toasty

 

[Lou]

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