Boiler I. D. For high reading on analysers

[Matt0029]

I have to go to a boiler tomorrow that has been classed as I. D dangerous by another engineer. I haven't fully read the Cp12 they have been issued. Surely this means a C0/C02 ratio greater than 0.008. If it was between 0.004 and 0.007 the appliance would be at risk. Thanks for any input. Usually work on installs but starting to get in to land lord checks.

 

[townfanjon]

It might not just be the anyliser reading , it could be anything .

 

[Scott_1979]

Depends on the appliance, if it’s an open flued boiler it would be I.D. If it’s a fan flue’d room sealed appliance it’s at risk.

Have a look at the GIUSP

 

[Matt0029]

I briefly saw a picture of the Cp12. It mentioned too high a reading when analysed. Though I could see any figures.

 

[Matt0029]

It's fan flue'd room sealed yes.

 

[king of pipes]

You really need to see it a make your own diagnosis but gather all the information you can and do another flue gas analysis and go from there. Kop

 

[Matt0029]

Thanks yes I go tomorrow.

 

[Matt0029]

If I do a full check of it. And get an acceptable reading, after stripping down and cleaning the burner if needed. And checking everything else needed to check when doing a Cp12 on a boiler. An engineer would be able to write a new Cp12 stating the appliance is safe to use?

 

[king of pipes]

Yes correct, check the case seals ive had em off the scale due to a failed seal take some with you just in case ? Kop

 

[Scott_D]

Are you going to give a second opinion or to try and repair?

 

[Matt0029]

Abit of both really.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Do you know what boiler it is?

 

[Matt0029]

Yes its an alpha he25.

 

[Burger]

Depends on the appliance, if it’s an open flued boiler it would be I.D. If it’s a fan flue’d room sealed appliance it’s at risk.

Have a look at the GIUSP

Hi Scott,

From what I read

Flueless - ID
Flued - AR

As per GIUSP

 

[Burger]

Yes its an alpha he25.

Don't know anything about these boilers, but have had high readings from Vaillant Ecotec pro where the condensate hose has fell off (known faulty ones)

 

[Matt0029]

Hi Scott,

From what I read

Flueless - ID
Flued - AR

As per GIUSP

Yes I got that too.

 

[Burger]

Matt, you also need to be looking at the warning notice if you haven't already, he might have classed it incorrectly. However you seem knowledgeable enough to rectify the situation, like you've said check everything over, re-analyse, don't forget to check the air intake.

 

[Millsy 82]

If you have to strip it you may need a gasket so may be better off taking one with you if you can get hold of one.

I've had some alphas in the past where the flue has turned brittle and cracked.

 

[Matt0029]

There was more wrong with the boiler than previously thought, the flue was heavily corroded and I could see the air intake had holes in it from rust. We decided on a new boiler in this instance. Thanks for the assistance.

 

[Scott_D]

There was more wrong with the boiler than previously thought, the flue was heavily corroded and I could see the air intake had holes in it from rust. We decided on a new boiler in this instance. Thanks for the assistance.

Will you be fitting or not your job?

 

[Matt0029]

Yeah I'll be fitting it yes.

 

[Scott_D]

Yeah I'll be fitting it yes.

What will be going in?

 

[Matt0029]

It's a rented house, landlord wants the cheapest. So it will be an ideal instinct. Which I think is the same as an ideal independent. Just different branding. Fitted a few over the last few years and never had any real issues.

 

[Scott_D]

It's a rented house, landlord wants the cheapest. So it will be an ideal instinct. Which I think is the same as an ideal independent. Just different branding. Fitted a few over the last few years and never had any real issues.

The independent is decent for the money.
Never fitted an instinct.

 

[Matt0029]

Depends on the appliance, if it’s an open flued boiler it would be I.D. If it’s a fan flue’d room sealed appliance it’s at risk.

Have a look at the GIUSP

So if a fan flue'd room sealed boiler was giving a CO/CO2 ratio of 0.008 or above this would still be immediately dangerous? With a reading between 0.004 and 0.007 would be an at risk situation? The GIUSP was a good, informative read thanks.

 

[Burger]

So if a fan flue'd room sealed boiler was giving a CO/CO2 ratio of 0.008 or above this would still be immediately dangerous? With a reading between 0.004 and 0.007 would be an at risk situation? The GIUSP was a good, informative read thanks.

I would say it would be AR above 0.008 and AR for your others. It just states unsatisfactory ratio’s is AR for flued appliance, doesn’t quote any ratio.

 

[Knappers]

If technically not ID it's a seriously poorly boiler and I'd want to cap it.
Remember the regs are just guidelines really and you cant get in too much trouble for being careful, categorise it as you like. ID for me, for a fault I haven't found - but is definitely there.

 

[Millsy 82]

If technically not ID it's a seriously poorly boiler and I'd want to cap it.
Remember the regs are just guidelines really and you cant get in too much trouble for being careful, categorise it as you like. ID for me, for a fault I haven't found - but is definitely there.

You cant just categorise as you like. An AR is an AR you cant ID it just because because you haven't found the fault, you find the fault and categorise accordingly.

When I reset my acs there was a section about unsafe procedures and you would of failed it.

Bad advice in my view.

 

[firemant]

If technically not ID it's a seriously poorly boiler and I'd want to cap it.
Remember the regs are just guidelines really and you cant get in too much trouble for being careful, categorise it as you like. ID for me, for a fault I haven't found - but is definitely there.

I dont know you,Knapper, so I mean no direct disrespect. Too many reach for the cap kit, just to CYA. We are, generally, reasonaby apid professionals - and should take the job seriously. That includes having the confidence to follow the rules, but to be able to work out the problem. You should not ID a boiler if it is "poorly" - only if there IS an "immediate danger".

And you are wrong - if you wrongly, say, deprive a tenant of heat and HW you could end up being sued, although I cannot say that has ever happened. But if I was the said tenants were my kids or elderly parents in law, I can promise you that you would know about it.

 

[Knappers]

I'm not a cap it and leave kinda guy.
In retrospect my advice was bad and was probably thinking of the badly corroded boiler with holes all over it as detailed above.
As a self employed engineer I have much more control over my jobs and asses them all on their own merit.
If just poor combustion on an otherwise healthy looking boiler then I'd work until the issue was resolved and failing that I'd decide how to categorise it based on it's own merit.
If the boiler was in poor condition and not a lifeline to an elderly or infirm customer then I'd easily find good reason to ID it for compounding issues (like corrosion). The poor combustion is just an alarm to prompt further investigation.
In practice on an AR boiler that I've arranged to replace I'd give the customer the warning notice and then tell them it's ok to use - but then id fail my ACS for that too!
I do get a bee in my bonnet about applying the regs to the letter and like to use my own judgement in the grey areas, I was a commercial engineer and perhaps making judgement calls is more necessary in that sector?

 

[Knappers]

I think the AR/ID classification is too similar in practice, AR wording should make it more acceptable to use the appliance as youd struggle to find a responsible user that would discern any difference between the two, the main difference being that the irresponsible user is unable to use a capped ID appliance?.....

 

[Jones82]

"At risk" is a strange term, at risk of what, who, when?

In my opinion it should be something like

"potentially dangerous, use at your own risk"

Then a disclaimer something like

"The engineer who attended to this boiler has found potentially hazardous elements. This gas appliance should be repaired as soon as possible as it may develop into a more serious problem"

Immediately dangerous is self explanatory and could even be labelled

"This is a dangerous gas appliance and has been isolated from the gas supply for your safety"

I'm lucky in that I generally work for regulars but if your working on large contracts, for the council for example, I bet you get some very awkward situations.

Its bad enough just trying to explain how a filling loop works!

 

[Scott_1979]

Hi Scott,

From what I read

Flueless - ID
Flued - AR

As per GIUSP

Not flueless, open flued such as a back boiler.

 

[Burger]

Not flueless, open flued such as a back boiler.

Where does it show this in current GIUSP? All I found was I've quoted?

 

[firemant]

I think the AR/ID classification is too similar in practice, AR wording should make it more acceptable to use the appliance .

The change was brought about because the Coroner said that AR should be treated as more serious than was the case. If you read his statement, I think he meant that EVERYTHING we consider AR or ID should be ID. His proposals were watered down somewhat