ASHP + Albion Ultrasteel

[turbotorch]

Hi,

Does anyone know if a ASHP will work ok with an Albion Ultrasteel? I see a lot of the manufacturers of ASHP's have there own cylinder, wasnt sure if they were a necessity or just something else they are selling?

 

[Nostrum]

It's the coil size and surface area you need to check, heat pumps need a much larger surface area to work effectively around 3.0m2.

 

[turbotorch]

Thx

The reason for the question is i installed the tank with the view of using an oil boiler, but starting to have second thoughts. Starting to to consider ASHP now instead, but if it means changing the tank not sure if its worth it..

Doesnt sit right with me having to spend so much on an oil tank tho..

 

[Worcester]

ASHP will only work efficiently if you have the right flow temperature (50 degrees max) and to do that you need radiators 2.4 x bigger that those required for an oil boiler.

For an ASHP to be cost effective you really should get your heat load down to less that 15kW (= typically 2 x 13kW ASHP's ) and have the emitters (underfloor heating) / radiators designed for a flow temp of 45°

 

[turbotorch]

Currently dont have any rads atm, so will be oversizing from the start, or possibly use aluminium rads?

Its only a small bungalow so i cant imagine the heat load is that great, havnt got as far as working out it yet. Trying to decide if its worth paying the extra over an oil boiler install.

 

[Worcester]

Yes, as you'll get your money back!

If no rads yet, then
1) Insulate loft and cavity walls
Get an EPC and GDAR done (the order of doing this is important!)
Now get your heat load down as low as possible:
2) Insulate (interior solid wall insulation)
3) Insulate (double glaxe windows and doors)
4) Insulate (loft further)
Now determine your heat emitters:
5) Fit underfloor heating or oversized rads, aluminium not much saving, alernative is fan convector rads
Your heat source:
6) fit an air source heat pump
Now you can go on extra holidays or work less : ( )
7) get paid back over 7 years buy the government for your additional vapital expenditure
8) save 30% - 50% over your oil bill year in year out......


Is your current cylinder usable with a heat pump - check the spec of it here: http://www.kingspanenviro.com/product/renewable-heating/solar-cylinders/albion-aerocy-heat-pump
(You've gotta know where to look with Kingspan !!!)

 

[turbotorch]

Got EPC and GDAR done, all insulated and topping up loft, cant do interior. Will prob go with oversized rads as i heard that the fans can get noisy after a while on the convectors.

I either need to find someone to sign off my ASHP for me or get MCS registered myself, as i kinda begrudge paying so much to someone for something i can do myself. It looks like a major headache being MCS though..

I prob would need a ASHP cylinder, i could always flog the ultrasteel.

 

[Worcester]

Guess you'll have to without the RHI payments then, we wouldn't risk our certification with such an approach.

Do you even know how to do a Heat loss calc to BS EN 1831?

also guess I won't be paying your prices for anything you could do as I'm sure Bodgitt and Co could do just as good a job as you......

P.s. Your doing things back to front .....

Do you know what the dB output of the ASHP at the required measure point is?

Do you know the five most common HP faults due to installation errors with ASHP's

Do you know what 'meter ready' means and the impact on your RHI payments.

Bet you've gone for an ecodan too haven't you. - No Prob's it'll take you about 20 hours to figure the dip switches if you haven't blown the circuit board first ....

I suggest you invest the £6k plus and get yourself MCS certified first, after all you'll save that on your own installation wont you....

/rant/

BMW moment over ...

 

[Nostrum]

It would work out cheaper to pay someone to install and register rather than:

a) become MCS registered.
b) miss out on the payments.

Theres a whole lot of stuff to work on and invest in to become MCS compliant and up to speed. Worth doing if you are seriously considering renewables as a business though.

 

[gasmanrob]

Won't you still need a buffer vessel to perform the weekly dhw bacteria kill thingy. I'm sure I heard that somewhere.

 

[Nostrum]

Buffer's are only really required on heat pump's that aren't able to modulate down sufficiently, to prevent short cycling. Quality units use inverter driven compressors which allow this so buffers are a thing of the past for most.

Buffers don't have any involvement in pasteurisation, which is required due to the heat pumps inability to raise the cylinder temperature above 60.

Usually the immersion heater in the cylinder is controlled directly from the heat pump controller to carry out a pasteurisation cycle on a weekly ( or daily) basis, preventing any build up of legionella.

 

[turbotorch]

Guess you'll have to without the RHI payments then, we wouldn't risk our certification with such an approach.

Do you even know how to do a Heat loss calc to BS EN 1831?

also guess I won't be paying your prices for anything you could do as I'm sure Bodgitt and Co could do just as good a job as you......

P.s. Your doing things back to front .....

Do you know what the dB output of the ASHP at the required measure point is?

Do you know the five most common HP faults due to installation errors with ASHP's

Do you know what 'meter ready' means and the impact on your RHI payments.

Bet you've gone for an ecodan too haven't you. - No Prob's it'll take you about 20 hours to figure the dip switches if you haven't blown the circuit board first ....

I suggest you invest the £6k plus and get yourself MCS certified first, after all you'll save that on your own installation wont you....

/rant/

BMW moment over ...

I dont think i made myself clear. As i do plumbing and heating installations at the moment i feel like i should be able to do it myself. Your quite right i dont know anything about heat pumps at the moment, but surely neither did you before you learnt about them.

When i say im considering going MCS, i did also mean going to college to do the relevant course, and anything else that is needed, before i do actually attempt certification. I have considered it as offering it as part of my business, but unsure on that at the moment.

I havent acutally bought an ASHP, im only thinking about it. I suppose its a case of going to college, getting the relevant qualifications, and using my own house as a guinea pig, as i know you need to show an install to be MCS anyway. Or forget about doing heat pump installs and just get someone in to fit it, although it does seem the costs are quite high, probably down to costs of mcs in the first place. Or just forget the idea and buy a woodburner.

 

[Worcester]

There is a LOT to learn when installing heat pumps and a shed load of paperwork that goes with them for MCS certification and RHI registration. - Along with all the pre-install caclulations and detailed design work, and quotation, you are probably looking at 2 days worth of office work for each installation.

If you believe that your customers will want heat pumps in the future and expanding into that area fits your business plan, then invest both your money and your time, do the courses, set up your QMS (don't buy one of the shelf they are ALL carp) and welcome to the club.

It will cost you a minimum of £6k in time and courses, plus all the extra insurances that you have to carry to get MCS certified. And then you've got to know all the pitfalls of bad installations.

We have spent a lot of time this summer fixing other peoples bad installs, - seems like they only want to install and don't want to maintain - why? Because most of them haven't a clue.. We will only install 2 makes of ASHP and 2 makes of GSHP having tested all the others training systems and support mechanisms. I know we lose work to the cheaper products on the market and that's fine by me as I can guarantee that those installations will have problems down the road. - Two of the HP's that we install come with 5 or 7 year parts and labour warranties - there aren;t many out there that are prepared to back their product like that.

If you're only 'thinking about' using an ASHP, your first step has got to be the heat loss calcs, get them done first and then you'll see if it a viable solution, in most cases it isn't.