Advice needed regarding surestop swich

[richie51]

I moved into my new home last year and had a new stopcock installed last Oct to replace the broken one that was in the spare bedroom. It wasn't a traditional stopcock, it was one of those red plastic dial ones. The plumber fitted a surestop in the airing cupboard. Last winter I heard loud banging in the pipework, but this stopped during the Summer. I haven't heard a sound for about 4 months, then a week ago as the temperature dropped the banging returned. The strange this I hear it in the early hours which is several hours after I've switched everything off. The only thing left switched on during the night is this surestop. I'm trying to remember what the plumber said, but I think he might have said it was easier to fit a surestop in the airing cupboard in the bathroom by the hot water tank as this is near the front of the bungalow,so nearer to the road where the main supply is. The kitchen is at the back of the property so maybe he thought it was more difficult to install a traditional one under the kitchen sink. I chatted to a plumber recently who said he'd had to remove a few surestops he'd installed as they can cause hammering. I did read up on them on the internet and it said the newer ones had eliminated this problem.Mine was only fitted less than a year ago, though I guess it could have been older stock. Has anyone experienced problems with surestops? Any advice as to what I might do next would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

 

[Phil]

I went mad fitting them about 10 years ago as I thought they were the Bee's bo77ocks but now I cringe when I see them. Plastic rubbish.

 

[Rob Foster]

Disconnect sure stop and see if hammer goes away but the way they operate does leave this a possibility

 

[hammers4spanner]

Get removed god awfull things.

 

[richie51]

Thanks for the replies. I think I will call another plumber and replace the surestop with a traditional one. My plumbing knowledge is limited though so in the meantime how do I disconnect the surestop safely. If I leave it switched off overnight will this stop any banging pipework while I'm trying to sleep.Or is there anything else I could do while I'm waiting for a plumber to replace it. Thanks.

 

[Rob Foster]

Try leaving a tap running a little somewhere out of the way

 

[rpm]

Try leaving a tap running a little somewhere out of the way

Not so good if you're on a water meter though.

 

[richie51]

Thanks Rob. Someone else said about leaving a tap running on the slowest trickle overnight. This did stop the banging which I presume must be hammer. I don't want to do this every night though because I am on a meter and the problem will still be there. I didn't leave a tap running last night and I did get woken at 5.40am by loud hammering noise. It's odd as I've noticed it seems to be around the same time every morning 5.40, whether I've had central heating on or not.

 

[Ric2013]

I suspect Rob was making the running tap suggestion as a means of diagnosing the problem, not as a solution, but better leave him to explain?

 

[richie51]

Yes definitely only a diagnosis. It did work the one night I left the kitchen tap on a slow trickle, so I'm not sure if this means I have water hammer. I've also noticed that about 5 minutes after running water I hear a clang of pipes.I didn't leave the tap on last night and was woken by loud hammering noise at 5.40am. I've noticed over the last week it is always about this time. Why 5.40am? One plumber did ask about shared ownership of supply pipes. I did suspect this as I have nothing turned on during the night except the surestop. I am in a detached home so I didn't think I had shared ownership of plumbing. I might have to buy a copy of deeds to find out. What do you recommend?Thanks.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Sure its not a washer on a ball valve ??

 

[richie51]

Thanks for that. So a worn washer can also cause banging in the pipes? Where is the ball valve? I had a new hot water tank fitted last Oct.The boiler was also new last year. It still seems odd why I'm hearing hammering at virtually the same time every morning, 5.40am,especially as I'm detached and I turn everything off overnight except the surestop switch. I will turn that off tonight just to see.

 

[Rob Foster]

Thanks for that. So a worn washer can also cause banging in the pipes? Where is the ball valve? I had a new hot water tank fitted last Oct.The boiler was also new last year. It still seems odd why I'm hearing hammering at virtually the same time every morning, 5.40am,especially as I'm detached and I turn everything off overnight except the surestop switch. I will turn that off tonight just to see.

do you live in a rural area. often the utility zone pump is switched off at night and comes back on when demand is expected this leads to a spike in pressure and MAYBE your bang. leaving a tap trickling was suggested to short term stop the noise and indicate that if it works its solvabubble (new word) by a aav at that pipe leading to the tap you left running Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[richie51]

Thanks Rob, no I don't live in a rural area. It's odd because I heard this hammering last winter, then it stopped completely for about 4 months,then started again a week or so ago. Why was this? The trickling tap in the kitchen did work for that one night. I think I'll try turning the surestop swich off overnight and see if that stops the hammering. An aav? Is that an air admittance valve? Is that a job for a plumber to fit? I wasn't sure if I had a loose pipe in the bedroom because it often sounds like a pipe being wacked against a wall. Sometimes it's really loud! It means cutting up sections of my chipboard flooring though to investigate. Sometimes but not every time, I hear a clang 5 minutes after I've ran water. Maybe I've got a loose pipe and water hammer too. Not sure. Some things are never straightforward! As I didn't hear any hammering the night I left the tap on a slow trickle, do you recommend fitting the aav to the pipe leading to the kitchen sink first and see if that works. I may have to try several things one a time,til something does work.Many thanks for your help!

 

[JCplumb]

If the pipes are difficult to access then maybe fitting a mini shock arrestor close to the incoming point of your water supply pipe would stop the water hammer.
Something like the following:
https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/reflex-expansion-vessel-shock-arrestor-0-16ltr/8199v

 

[richie51]

Thanks JCplumb. I've just read your link about shock arrestors. Definitely worth a go before I start cutting up the floor to look for a loose pipe. Are these easy to instal or is it better to ask a plumber to fit one. Thanks.

 

[richie51]

If the pipes are difficult to access then maybe fitting a mini shock arrestor close to the incoming point of your water supply pipe would stop the water hammer.
Something like the following:
https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/reflex-expansion-vessel-shock-arrestor-0-16ltr/8199v

Sounds good. Would this solve things other than hammer. I've yet to find out if I'm on shared mains, or if there's a loose unclipped pipe somewhere. Thanks.

 

[JCplumb]

If it were my house it's what I'd try first especially if the alternative would take a long time or cost a lot.
I have no idea if you'd be OK to fit it yourself, depends on how good you are at this kind of thing, if you're not sure then probably best to call someone. Not a difficult job for a plumber.
Might be an idea to get a plumber in anyway as I don't understand why your last plumber would fit a surestop in an airing cupboard.
They're not easier to fit than a traditional stop tap and they cost about £40 more than a brass stop tap, unless the plumber was actually not a plumber and fitted it because it's pushfit rather than compression. You can't just re-site the mains stop valve to somewhere else, it needs to be at the point where your supply enters the building.
The fact that you get water hammer at the same time every morning suggests something kicking in, if there's nothing in your property timed to come on at that time then it must be outside, possibly in a neighbours house. Does a neighbour get up at 5:30 each morning and go brush their teeth? Local water pressure is higher at that time of day so hammer is more likely, especially if you both share a supply after a shared external stop valve. Shared valve are more common in older properties, I've seen a row of 8 houses all sharing an external valve, that was fun with a pinhole in the lead before the stop tap.

 

[richie51]

Thanks for that. I did chat to the one neighbour who said they have nothing kicking in at that time. He has a bit of plumbing knowledge though he's not a plumber,he even fitted his sisters bathroom for her and seems to know what he's on about. He said call the plumber back who fitted my bathroom last year.He was recommended though I've no idea how qualified he is. My neighbour said very often after you've had a new bathroom you can get an air lock.He said he should be able to fit something to one of the pipes to sort out any air lock. I can't remember now what he said could be fitted to the pipe though. The neighbour said I won't be on a shared mains as I'm detached, but it's odd as I hear this hammering at roughly the same time. It was 10 mins earlier this morning, 5.30am. The neighbour said you can often get noise at the same time each day if there's a problem. I haven't chatted to the other neighbour yet. I haven't even met them yet. They're Chinese but hopefully they speak English well,and have only been here 8 weeks. I feel a bit bad asking them before I've even met them properly. There's obviously nothing I can do to stop them getting up at 5.30, so if we are on shared mains,what can I do to stop the pipes banging in my house. Thanks.

 

[richie51]

I've just chatted to the other neighbours who said they haven't put their heating on yet and no water running that early, so I think shared mains can be ruled out.

 

[Julie Street]

A customer of mine had the same problem which also tended to occur in the early hours, maybe due to pressure changes of unknown cause in the incoming mains. Banging was under the floorboards. Anyway I eventually traced it to the ceramic disc cartridges in the kitchen tap, changed them, problem solved, its worth checking any quarter turn taps you have.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Is your hot water or heating set to come on at 5.40am via a timer or a programmer? If so this could be your problem.

As to SureStop switches, the first incarnation was replaced by an updated version. I've never had any problem with any SureStop installations, although I did replace a diy customer's install as he fitted it to 3/4" Imperial copper, when it should be 22mm metric connections and I'm not a big fan of pushfit connections either.

SureStop water switches are something I install mainly on residential caravans as they provide the user with an easy way of isolating the water supply when they leave.

 

[richie51]

Thanks for the replies. No I don't use the timer and everything is turned off overnight except the surestop. It's odd why it's about the same time. It was 10 mins earlier this morning, 5.30. I'm asking a plumber to check everything for me next week, and I've made a note of all the pointers here. Thanks!