under sized boiler ???

[sheff paul]

called today to give a second opinion on a recent fit,250 litre unvented hw cylinder,9 rads,most large doubles close to 16 kw output on heating side,all heating on one zone,been heated by a 18 kw sysyem boiler,not the best job.The term undersized boiler comes to mind

 

[happyflyer]

Paul,

Can you get the customer to clock the gas meter per day, perhaps its a bit late now the outside temperature is going up, but like you say it doesn't stack up, I think the 250 litre Un-vented primary coil is rated more than the boiler alone.

 

[Killy Bing]

Best remedy bar adding a second boiler or putting a bigger one in would be to wire it up as a w plan, get the cylinder to temp then heat the house

 

[sheff paul]

Paul,

Can you get the customer to clock the gas meter per day, perhaps its a bit late now the outside temperature is going up, but like you say it doesn't stack up, I think the 250 litre Un-vented primary coil is rated more than the boiler alone.

the coil is rated at 19 kw,will work ok in spring,but in winter when hw calls demand the rads will be barely warm,another 3rd rate install cannot be bothered to get involved

 

[Whyme]

That little baby got its work cut out..tell em to use the immersion.

 

[sheff paul]

That little baby got its work cut out..

I think the return temp will be pretty low

 

[albatross]

called today to give a second opinion on a recent fit,250 litre unvented hw cylinder,9 rads,most large doubles close to 16 kw output on heating side,all heating on one zone,been heated by a 18 kw sysyem boiler,not the best job.The term undersized boiler comes to mind

It should be ok. If it hasn't, fit trvs which will reduce the load. Put hot water on 24 hours so it never heats from cold. Make sure loft and cavities are fully insulated. Maybe consider weather compensation if the customer isn't thick!

 

[mfgs]

Not a very good install, but could get around it by setting the hot water and heating times separately so they aren't on at the same time.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Hang on a second.

If the cylinder is 250 litre and based on a temp rise of 40 deg C, then you should only need the full output of the boiler for just over half an hour to go from stone cold to piping hot. Whilst I agree that the rads will cool down in this time, the air temp should not drop more than a couple of degrees.

And thats assuming the worst possible scenario, of a stone cold cylinder being heated from scratch.

TBH I suspect some other problem here. You may be able to mask it by pumping up the input, but that doesnt make it the right diagnosis.

 

[Whyme]

18kw for the whole thing is crap though ray.

 

[Ray Stafford]

18kw for the whole thing is crap though ray.

Why? We used to allow 8,000 or 10,000 BTUs (BTUs, not KW) for hot water, and everyone was happy.

Sure, if I had a 16kw heating load and an unvented cyl, I would opt for a 24kw boiler. But I don't think it would be miles better than an 18kw. Better, yes. Miles better? Not really...

 

[Whyme]

i wasnt getting at ya, we dont know what the usage of the cylinder is. imho that boiler isnt big enough for the maximum output at full load.

 

[Killy Bing]

i wasnt getting at ya, we dont know what the usage of the cylinder is. imho that boiler isnt big enough for the maximum output at full load.

*Whistles*

but the boiler is good enough to do the maximum load of one OR the other.

W plan hot water priority.

 

[happyflyer]

I think the return temp will be pretty low

I think the flow temp will be pretty low

 

[AWheating]

adjust the clock so the hot water comes on at a time the heating is not required.

 

[happyflyer]

adjust the clock so the hot water comes on at a time the heating is not required.

Aw you mean have hot bath in a cold bathroom or a cold bath in a warm bathroom, electrical shower will fix that

:75:

 

[Mike Jackson]

Set the water to come on an hour before the heating. If that doesn't solve the problem then there are further problems with the install.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

What actual problem has the customer got? I agree with Ray, it should be fine. Seen this set up many a time

 

[oz-plumber]

What temperature is the boiler set too?
It could be as simple as a faulty boiler stat.
Check the flow temp and see if it correlates with the boiler thermostat setting.
You don't need much of a temperature drop for a borderline boiler to really under perform.

Oz Plumber

 

[Killy Bing]

I must have a weird way of looking at things. I suppose during the winter the heatings been next to useless most of the time its run.

if they haven't fitted a lockshield valve to the coil then it will offer next to no resistance, easily more than half the heat will run around that and give unsatisfactory performance to both. By the time the cylinder reaches temp then the heating will be going off.

 

[AWheating]

Aw you mean have hot bath in a cold bathroom or a cold bath in a warm bathroom, electrical shower will fix that

:75:

LOL, if the cylinder is modern, it should keep warm for many, many hours. long enough for the heating to warm up

 

[Roger Welton]

Non issue in my eyes, as said just vary the timings slightly. We have the same at home boiler is currently range rated to 19kW with 15 rads (in 2 zones) and 300l unvented and we have never been cold or had no hot water.

 

[buckley plumb]

they used to say allow 2kw for the hw on vented cylinders do unvented cylinders realy need that much kw .

 

[cr0ft]

No, the modern unvented cylinders just have much more efficient heat exchangers so they can actually disperse more power into the water quicker. You could charge them with 2kw of heat from the boiler and for similar sized cylinders they would heat up in exactly the same time as an older vented one. Well a bit quicker actually due to better insulation but let's not split hairs!

 

[Whyme]

depends on the demand if its used by a few teenagers its gonna rob the heating regardless how long it heats or keeps the heat..i do like to learn and if 20kw can can heat a big house and big cylinder I'll be fitting smaller boilers in future.

 

[cr0ft]

Our cheap skate new home builders installed a Potterton Promax 15 SL 15KW system boiler onto our system. It has an unvented hot water cylinder with an 18.3KW heat exchanger. There are just under 15KW of radiators in our house.

You can get away with sizing a boiler to suit the heating requirement only in a house like Ray says. The rads will not be heated for the half hour or so a modern unvented cylinder takes to recharge, in practise it will hardly be noticed.

I caveat this with there are just 2 of us in the house and we use showers only most of the time.

Our house is a 5 bedroom detached house. I would say the boiler is undersized and when we change it I will fit a 24KW system boiler but it does the job.

 

[Nostrum]

There is no requirement to allow both the heating and hot water to be run at the same time under full load. Remember, the heat loss calculated will be at -1,-3 or whatever ie 1-2 weeks a year.

The rating of the coil is irrelevant really as long as heat up time complies with part L. In reality who's checking? How often will you need to heat the entire cylinder from cold?

if you are adding the coil size to the heat loss then your massively over sizing boilers.

Sounds like this boiler was sized perfectly which makes a change.

Also, who's to say the radiators aren't over sized? Sizing a boiler should be done by heat loss of the building not radiator sizes.

if they are running out of water, the cylinder is undersized not the boiler.

 

[Whyme]

Suppose its like everything, make do and change settings or get it changed..also being there and knowing if their bath people or shower, and when through the day are people using hw....

 

[Killy Bing]

the heating stops when hw is heating up.

Lockshield valve on the coil, balance it and job done?

 

[Whyme]

im assuming its balanced. i still believe it to be undersized but hay ho.

 

[Killy Bing]

My parents house needs 29kw heat, it has two unventeds, a 250 and 300 litre.

boiler is 32kw output. Coils are balanced as is the system and it runs it more than fine.

it has solar but thats usually pretty irrelevant when the heating is needed.

if you cant see a lockshield valve on the coil then its the path of least resistance for the system to pump to.

simple valve and extend hot water periods.

all it needs

 

[Whyme]

Mmm all i was saying is worst case demand is the key to see your kw output.

 

[Bronze_tap]

adjust the clock so the hot water comes on at a time the heating is not required.

Explain to the customer that that system is not designed to work with the Randal-style clock. Use the heating system in the Canada mode, not in the Cornwall 2hours day mode.
Remove the clock on the cylinder and put a thermostat instead the clock on the heating in the coldest room.
Make sure that the heating IS ON FOR 24/7 in THERMOSTAT-controlled mode.
Water should be in 24/7 on cyl thermostat.
Buy some programmed valves, to cut out unused rooms. Get the house PROPERLY insulated.

I remeber heating the 4room semi house with 32KW ex-combi boiler modulated down to ~8KW when the outside was -7 C. inside was 19 C. Solid uninsulated walls + loft insulation.

PS: You are not going to save much with well insulated unvented cyllinder kept on the timer. So ditch it for the cyl.

PPS: Do check the condition of the boiler's heatex (esp if the boiler is older than 5-20 years, and was serviced last time 5-10 years ago), Make sure it is clean. Use a spatula/stiff brush/stick for clening the crud out of it.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Lockshield valve on the coil, balance it and job done?

I was told that under part L we should no longer fit balancing valves to cylinders. The reason being all systems should be fitted with a programmer capable of separate times for heating and hot water and this enables the full load of the boiler to be sent to the cylinder before the heating comes on. Doing this means that the boiler can be accurately sized for the heat requirements of the property and it will remain in condensing mode for longer.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Not a very good install, but could get around it by setting the hot water and heating times separately so they aren't on at the same time.

top post Matt ,

have water to heat at early morning and then late afternoon will sort it out

 

[happyflyer]

Am I missing something here, should not a boiler be sized for the maximum load, if it is not then you need a priority system one way or another, HWS or Heating. A bit like buying a car that does 130 mph but only downhill,on a good day,with a tailwind. I suppose most system are a compromise, if the Mega flow has a demand of say 20 Kw and the heating system is 15 kw then around 35 kw would be correct, anything less then there is a compromise, and has safegasinstall says stagger the loading, sorted!!! savvy!!!

 

[sheff paul]

There is no requirement to allow both the heating and hot water to be run at the same time under full load. Remember, the heat loss calculated will be at -1,-3 or whatever ie 1-2 weeks a year.

The rating of the coil is irrelevant really as long as heat up time complies with part L. In reality who's checking? How often will you need to heat the entire cylinder from cold?

if you are adding the coil size to the heat loss then your massively over sizing boilers.

Sounds like this boiler was sized perfectly which makes a change.

Also, who's to say the radiators aren't over sized? Sizing a boiler should be done by heat loss of the building not radiator sizes.

if they are running out of water, the cylinder is undersized not the boiler.

The technical guy from RM cylinders insisted we allowed 9kw allowance for a 180 unvented on a recent install to achieve recovery times specified....

 

[Whyme]

Am I missing something here, should not a boiler be sized for the maximum load, if it is not then you need a priority system one way or another, HWS or Heating. A bit like buying a car that does 130 mph but only downhill,on a good day,with a tailwind. I suppose most system are a compromise, if the Mega flow has a demand of say 20 Kw and the heating system is 15 kw then around 35 kw would be correct, anything less then there is a compromise, and has safegasinstall says stagger the loading, sorted!!! savvy!!!

agreed maximum load always has been always will and should be..

 

[Mike Jackson]

I hope that you guys that are advocating sizing the boilers for the combined heating and hot water loads are also correctly sizing the primaries. I'm expecting to see a lot more 28mm primaries to cylindersin the future then.

 

[happyflyer]

agreed maximum load always has been always will and should be..

Wyhme that should be the end of this thread but it won't be, but it won't be. People will go on about, turn this, tweak that, fit this, fit that, you are spot on, if the total loads add up to 30kW then it should be that plus some for intermittent use, yes we forgot that, intermittent use another 10% or maybe a bit more. Skimping all that time cut the cost of the job...

 

[AWheating]

The technical guy from RM cylinders insisted we allowed 9kw allowance for a 180 unvented on a recent install to achieve recovery times specified....

a 180l cylinder will prob have a 16-18kw coil, so the manufacturer seems to suggest allowance of half of the coils max. Seems about right to me.

i think sometimes more thought has to be put into these things than adding the max loads equals. Things change, all properties and situations are different. Many new builds have amazing u values that require little heat on the heating side sometimes only a few kw's, but may have a cylinder with a 20-25kw coil.

 

[happyflyer]

a 180l cylinder will prob have a 16-18kw coil, so the manufacturer seems to suggest allowance of half of the coils max. Seems about right to me.

i think sometimes more thought has to be put into these things than adding the max loads equals. Things change, all properties and situations are different. Many new builds have amazing u values that require little heat on the heating side sometimes only a few kw's, but may have a cylinder with a 20-25kw coil.

Like you say all it takes is a bit of thought, not a lot around these days

 

[Ermintrude]

Just sized my house just ordered a new boiler . 5TW (terra watt) do you think it will cycle much? I have 4m2 ufh 1 600x600 single panel. And a 14kw coil?

 

[sheff paul]

Just sized my house just ordered a new boiler . 5TW (terra watt) do you think it will cycle much? I have 4m2 ufh 1 600x600 single panel. And a 14kw coil?

it will if its a worcestor,with a Vaillant steady as she go's

 

[Ray Stafford]

agreed maximum load always has been always will and should be..

Sorry, I just can't agree with this.

"Maximum load" results from a calculation that is full of assumptions and guesswork.

You use a figure for the u-value of a wall that is educated guesswork in the case of modern construction methods, and a rough approximation in the case of older properties.

You assume an outside temperature which would have been wildly pessismistic this year (at least where I live) and wildly optimistic last year. Incidentally, you make the same assumptions for house on a windswept hill in ***bria as we do here in a protected spot in the sunny south coast.

You assume a number of air changes per hour which is absolutely a stab in the dark.

You assume that all customers have identical lifestyles, hot water requirements and preferred room temperatures.

Then (at least in domestic work) you guess pipe-sizes, utterly ignore the effect of pipe runs and valve restrictions and even how the radiator theoretical outputs were calculated.

And after all those assumptions, guesses and approximations, "maximum load" has about as much mathematical rigour as my estimate of Pompey's chances in the FA cup next year.

At the very best, you are covering your bum against claims by being able to prove that your system was designed to best practice. That may be a worthwhile aim, but lets not pretend its engineering.

 

[happyflyer]

Sorry, I just can't agree with this.

"Maximum load" results from a calculation that is full of assumptions and guesswork.

You use a figure for the u-value of a wall that is educated guesswork in the case of modern construction methods, and a rough approximation in the case of older properties.

You assume an outside temperature which would have been wildly pessismistic this year (at least where I live) and wildly optimistic last year. Incidentally, you make the same assumptions for house on a windswept hill in ***bria as we do here in a protected spot in the sunny south coast.

You assume a number of air changes per hour which is absolutely a stab in the dark.

You assume that all customers have identical lifestyles, hot water requirements and preferred room temperatures.

Then (at least in domestic work) you guess pipe-sizes, utterly ignore the effect of pipe runs and valve restrictions and even how the radiator theoretical outputs were calculated.

And after all those assumptions, guesses and approximations, "maximum load" has about as much mathematical rigour as my estimate of Pompey's chances in the FA cup next year.

At the very best, you are covering your bum against claims by being able to prove that your system was designed to best practice. That may be a worthwhile aim, but lets not pretend its engineering.

Ray,

You are 100% right, I just couldn't be bothered to type it all out, you probably missed a few other things but I think people will get the message, guesswork guesswork guesswork.

What about this building control inspector who is looking after it all.

 

[happyflyer]

In the commercial sector a lot of over-sizing goes on, consultnats fear of PI attacks

 

[sheff paul]

Sorry, I just can't agree with this.

"Maximum load" results from a calculation that is full of assumptions and guesswork.

You use a figure for the u-value of a wall that is educated guesswork in the case of modern construction methods, and a rough approximation in the case of older properties.

You assume an outside temperature which would have been wildly pessismistic this year (at least where I live) and wildly optimistic last year. Incidentally, you make the same assumptions for house on a windswept hill in ***bria as we do here in a protected spot in the sunny south coast.

You assume a number of air changes per hour which is absolutely a stab in the dark.

You assume that all customers have identical lifestyles, hot water requirements and preferred room temperatures.

Then (at least in domestic work) you guess pipe-sizes, utterly ignore the effect of pipe runs and valve restrictions and even how the radiator theoretical outputs were calculated.

And after all those assumptions, guesses and approximations, "maximum load" has about as much mathematical rigour as my estimate of Pompey's chances in the FA cup next year.

At the very best, you are covering your bum against claims by being able to prove that your system was designed to best practice. That may be a worthwhile aim, but lets not pretend its engineering.

your on the right track,but back in the day with a 120 litre cylinder connected with a s,y plan making an allowance for the cylinder wasn't essential,now you have a cylinder double the capacity with the same reheat time,so the heat has gotta come from some where to power it,and new boilers modulate so if its marginally over sized it not gonna be a problem.Then when billy the builder comes along and knocks up a monster extension the boiler can still cut it

 

[Ermintrude]

But every single calculation is an approximation and gas assumptions. Even calculating the area if a circle is an approximation and has a been rounded up or down. Pi, is an irrational number and cannot be expressed as a fraction so nothing is 100% accurate. Fluid dynamics is based on tensor calculus which is fraught with approximations.


Heating systems can be designed very well with rule of thumb and a rudimentary model. A real model would be immense and require a super computer.? Lorenz had some very interesting thoughts on chaos. If you make a cup of tea u upset the thermal drifts and how a radiator works I some one else's house 120miles away in 3 days time!


When you have designed and installed a system you can check it's performance. Set rooms and flows so you get delta t of rads and 22c drop at boiler and cylinder on full tilt few measurements and bobs your uncle

SBEM calculations were tallied against loads of new builds and were within 5% of actual. This was done before BREEAM and it shows that calculations do work and that you should at least think about what your doing before just doing it?!!!!!

 

[Ermintrude]

In the commercial sector a lot of over-sizing goes on, consultnats fear of PI attacks

Should be worried about over sizing as that's going to be the next block of litigation as energy goes up. Exceeding the spec ?