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Please help - have i been ripped off?

Discuss Please help - have i been ripped off? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

YorkshireDave said:
People just don't do that Rob. We all want to believe we've got a 'good un' and there's no need to worry :(
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you and I must meet up I think
...I can travel ..after march when it gets lighter .. your call
Rob Foster ..whats your drunking place ....deliberate miss spell ! ...Rob Foster
 
Rob Foster said:
you and I must meet up I think
...I can travel ..after march when it gets lighter .. your call
Rob Foster ..whats your drunking place ..deliberate miss spell ! ...Rob Foster
Click to expand...

I agree.
I tried to open a conversation with you earlier today but was told I couldn't :( Any idea why?
Have you blocked me again ;)
 
FWIW, if the business has changed ownership then I would usually expect that the business still exists and its records, assets, and liabilities will pass on to the new owner. While I can understand that certain details might be lost, anything contractual and recent should still be there! Sounds like you are being fobbed off.

We've all been there. Recently my van got scraped while parked on my own drive and, at the same time, my fence was knocked over by a contractor working for Essex County Council. Despite plenty of forensic evidence, the police was uninterested and nothing got sorted. But I dealt with the problem: repaired the fence and van and got on with my life. I will raise the issue at a council meeting about how contractors should be selected more carefully, but in a way, it's good that I didn't make a claim on the contractor as my insurance did not go up. Similarly, I would suggest that if you have written to the company and had no proper reply, you concentrate on the current problem and worry about what you were charged another time when you're less annoyed.

If Dave and Rob are meeting at some point, then I would be interested in joining them if they are interested? PM me if there a small social and you want me there as I think you would both be interesting to meet.
 
Enough already. I want to get on with my life... :rolleyes:

So, let's look at the issue you posted where your water pressure was dropping so you had the repair for £500 carried out.

It is obvious that the 'control block' (the new part consisting of a pressure reducing valve and pressure relief valve) is new. Based on the fact that you've not had any maintenance carried out on your unvented cylinder to that point, it is quite likely that the filter inside the pressure reducing valve had become blocked leaving you with a much lower flow rate - which you would describe as a loss of 'pressure'. As it would be completely calcified (bunged up) the correct resolution was applied. That is, to fit a new control block.

Herein lies a problem. A non manufacturers part would cost no more than £50. Adding 25% is reasonable so a parts bill of £70.

IF it were a 'genuine' part (read further stitch up) from the manufacturer then it could well be double that. All in all tho, nowhere near £200.

As you are in London, the most expensive plumbers are Pimlico Heating. They charge £157 per hour. So, your maximum labour charge should have been approx £150. Again nowhere near the £300 you were charged.

Moving on. Your system is a mess. It needs urgently resolving in order to be both compliant and safe.

As a landlord, you have a legal obligation to have it appropriately serviced, but you also have a duty of care.

What you need, is an experienced G3 engineer to look at your system and to set it right. You will need a full service on it to make sure it is fit for purpose and working most efficiently. This will involve some pipework modifications to make it comply with regulations and to remove your neck from the noose should anything go wrong and it harm someone, or do damage to your home.

Insurers look for things like this in order to escape their moral responsibilities. If you had a water leak on the hot side, insurers may well ask to see the cylinders maintenance history. If you cannot provide it then they can, and do in my experience, simply walk away from the claim due to YOU not carrying out required maintenance.

The fact you simply did not know means nothing. It's entirely your responsibility to find out what you don't even know to ask about :rolleyes:

I strongly suspect that the engineer who turned up was NOT G3 qualified. Obviously I cannot know, so IMHO, it should form a line of enquiry from you to them as to the person attending's appropriateness of qualifications. The reason you have a right to know, is the poor state of the cylinder installation and its lack of servicing. Every G3 engineer I have ever met would have pointed out all of these things when there or reported post event simply to cover their backsides :) Further, the engineer should NOT have worked on it if unqualified.

It is NOT dangerous in the short term so do not panic.

It does however need fixing urgently and appropriate resolutions applied. Please make sure he/she checks the rating of the control block components even though they are new. They MUST be rated the same as original to comply with safety accreditations.

Overall, it's a bit of a bugger's muddle really. The good news is that you are now placed to both understand what was and to move forward with some considerable confidence.

You have now learned that as a landlord your head is in a noose continually. You really must both investigate and take seriously those various responsibilities but, unfortunately, agents also try to BS you by wittering on about aspects of things just to scare you - e.g. annual legionella assessments and deep cleans.

Anyway, I hope we have been able to help. When you return, as I know you'll not be able to keep away for our combined charms, you'll be a little wiser. Please update us. :)

Sorry it was so long :mad:
 
this type of incompetance by a landlord ..in my experience tends to be the tip of an iceberg,
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..
 
Rob Foster said:
this type of incompetance by a landlord ..in my experience tends to be the tip of an iceberg,
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..
Click to expand...

Perhaps, Rob, just perhaps this is not the tip of an iceberg but innocent ignorance. If you read through the posts, the lady says the only reason they moved out was because of a rotten neighbour - we all know that feeling! She also says, without prompting, that she still considers this her home. Perhaps, just perhaps, she is letting privately and has not bothered with parasitic agents who, let's face it add ziltch in any way shape or form and charge the Earth for adding so little. I could recount personal stories of straight up agent corruption here - but I won't. :rolleyes:

I totally get where you are coming from and, no doubt like you, have seen the penny pinching scumbag landlords fall flat on their faces - to our great amusement. :cool::cool:

Not all though are cut from the same cloth and some landlords, the only ones I ever worked for at least, are caring considerate people who deserve far more than the awful tenants often give them.

Perhaps, once again, we might at least wait till the head enters the noose before kicking away the steps :D
 
missfrances said:
Hi. My house, in north London, has a Sime Superior 100 boiler. Last year I noticed the water pressure was slowly dropping (in all the taps, and the shower), so at the start of December I got a plumber out, who said we needed a new pressure valve for the boiler. I was told the new valve was about £200 ish, and I was charged £498 (inc vat) in total for the work. The plumber came out twice; firstly to diagnose the problem, which he did very quickly, and secondly to bring and fit the new part. I assumed the fitting was complex, but he fitted the part really quickly, in 30-45 minutes, or so. I thought the cost seemed excessive, especially when i saw how quickly it was fitted. Please could someone tell me if I've paid a far price, or if I've been ripped off?! Annoyingly, only a month later, the boiler has stopped working. So my second question is, can I make the plumber come back again and fix it? Thank you. Vic
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In my humble opinion:. Callefi combination valve Screwfix 1610v £35 bit of pipework 20ish 2hrs Labour Cambridge rates £60 for first hour £40 for subsequent top price £200 yes I am G3 to satisfy drama queens!
 
As a householder who is following this thread with interest, am I correct in assuming that where the boiler heats an unvented cylinder the plumber should have a G3 certificate? This is not at all clear from Gas Safe site. Maybe it's there but how far am I supposed to drill down? Where does G3 start and stop?
 
G3 is NOTHING to do with Gas Safe. It is an entirely different qualification. They have no connection aside from them both being 'plumbing'.

The G3 regs start at the supply to the unvented cylinder and finish at two points: 1 - the safety discharge pipework and 2 - the hot water supply pipework.
 
Rob Foster said:
oh dear, that prv looks like a honeywell do4 ...the best prv
on the European domestic market , it costs well less than £50.00, micky mouse ones cost
less than £10.00. I cannot remember the spec but I am not sure it should be vertically installed...but others will correct me.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
Click to expand...
The kink in that prv discharge won’t help either
 
YorkshireDave said:
Perhaps, Rob, just perhaps this is not the tip of an iceberg but innocent ignorance. If you read through the posts, the lady says the only reason they moved out was because of a rotten neighbour - we all know that feeling! She also says, without prompting, that she still considers this her home. Perhaps, just perhaps, she is letting privately and has not bothered with parasitic agents who, let's face it add ziltch in any way shape or form and charge the Earth for adding so little. I could recount personal stories of straight up agent corruption here - but I won't. :rolleyes:

I totally get where you are coming from and, no doubt like you, have seen the penny pinching scumbag landlords fall flat on their faces - to our great amusement. :cool::cool:

Not all though are cut from the same cloth and some landlords, the only ones I ever worked for at least, are caring considerate people who deserve far more than the awful tenants often give them.

Perhaps, once again, we might at least wait till the head enters the noose before kicking away the steps :D
Click to expand...
My old school friend is a surveyer, with lots of work in the private rented sector. Over the past few years (after training) I cover his holidays and eg This week I will visit over a dozen properties. I have to be open minded for each visit. My cynicism is fuelled by high rents charged for a small minority of frankly diabolical rentals, 50/50 landlord and tennants responsibility I see some amateur landlords dabbling in what should be skilled areas trying to grab as much lolly as possible. The comparison between the corporate lets and properties which have professional management and skilled maintenance and the pathetic diy ones is both stunning and immoral, dangerous and verging on theft.
Occassionally I read posts on here which fall into this category. I do not hold back as you know. Rob Foster aka centralheatking
 
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Before you let any tradesman do work for you, get a full understanding of their charges (callout, hourly charge including any minimum charge) and if any parts need replacing have these clearly detailed in advance of paying anything. If that pic is the part you've had replaced, you've been ripped off.

A reputable plumber will be happy to provide the above information to you so you can make an informed choice but unfortunately though, some prey on the customers predicament.
 
YorkshireDave said:
G3 is NOTHING to do with Gas Safe. It is an entirely different qualification. They have no connection aside from them both being 'plumbing'.

The G3 regs start at the supply to the unvented cylinder and finish at two points: 1 - the safety discharge pipework and 2 - the hot water supply pipework.
Click to expand...

Then what is the unvented that's on Gas Safe please?

Screen Shot 2019-01-20 at 10.39.47.png
 
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I started to make some progress with this matter at the end of last week, and I wanted to come back with a decent update. So, first of all, thank you for everyone who helped with this, and provided positive feedback. Thank you especially to Yorkshire Dave. Your long post (explaining the situation clearly) was brilliant, and very well written. If I was in Yorkshire, I'd be taking you for a pint to say thank you! So, quick update....
1. A new plumber visited on Thursday. He pointed out that the flexible hose, fitted in December, was 'not to standard'. This has now been corrected and replaced with copper piping. Please see 3 attached pics, which show the Original set up, the Valve & hose fitted in December (marked image D), and Corrective work with copper piping (image E). I was charged £109 (including vat) for this corrective work, which seemed perfectly reasonable.
2. The new plumber asked me about Gas Safety checks. I can confirm I get a landlords gas safety check every year, without fail, and have always passed. I keep all documentation. The company who carry out this check for me every year is called gas-elec (www.gas-elec.co.uk). I also pay the same company to check our smoke detectors and co alarms.
2. After repeated requests for a breakdown, the original plumbers emailed me last week, and confirmed that they hadn't given me any paperwork, and couldn't provide it.
3. My partner emailed the original plumbers, pointing out the following. That they have a) overcharged for the work, b) provided inaccurate information about what work was carried out, c) carried out the work incorrectly, and d) not provided an invoice. It stated that unless the company reimbursed us for £498, we would issue legal proceedings, and that we would also contact the relevant trade bodies and trade standards organisations regarding the inadequate work (possibly by unqualified persons). The email asked the plumbers to confirm their address for service.
4. The original plumbers called my partner, and admitted that we had been overcharged. They offered a full refund.
5. My partner, being the reasonable chap he is, suggested they refund us £400, on the basis that they did at least install a valve.
6. I have now been refunded £400!

So a good outcome. I realise in future I'm going to have to be more careful about the tradespeople I use, and how I deal with them, however I do have to trust people to a certain extent. I find most tradespeople are decent, honest and straightforward.

Apologies that this story has dragged on, and that I have bored some of you to death. I do appreciate your time and help. Information provided here was very useful.

One final thing. Not all landlords are bad! I do appreciate that there are plenty of dodgy landlords around, who give everyone a bad name, but there are lots just like me, who really care about their properties and want their tenants to be happy.

1_Original.jpg


2_New valve.jpg


3_correctedwork.jpg
 
Dannyk said:
Then what is the unvented that's on Gas Safe please?

View attachment 36475
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So, in theory, you need G3 or building control sign-off to install a vented cylinder too, even though the level 2 diploma shows you how to do it correctly and safely.

Am I the only one who asks himself what possible advantage there is in requiring a compentent plumber like myself with NVQ 2 to get building control in whenever he changes a cylinder and how many customers will be willing to pay the extra and wait for a BCO visit before I can get their hot water on for them?
 
Ric2013 said:
So, in theory, you need G3 or building control sign-off to install a vented cylinder too, even though the level 2 diploma shows you how to do it correctly and safely.

Am I the only one who asks himself what possible advantage there is in requiring a compentent plumber like myself with NVQ 2 to get building control in whenever he changes a cylinder and how many customers will be willing to pay the extra and wait for a BCO visit before I can get their hot water on for them?
Click to expand...

You pass your g3, which is not just for unvented, then you can either attach your pass to a competent person scheme, for a fee, or not.
If you attach it to a competent person scheme you can install (providing details of install to building control prior to install), repair and service. The installation part being notifiable through your competent person scheme to building control.
If you don't you can still install by raising a building control notification and having them sign it off on completion. You can still repair and service as well.
Either way the customer will pay. I now need to renew my g3 and will be going via option 2. It will put an extra £255 on any install.

Not too sure if vented is notifiable, wasn't 5 years ago.
 
missfrances said:
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I do appreciate your time and help. Information provided here was very useful.
Click to expand...

MF. Thank you for the update. Glad that UK Plumbers Forum members have been of some use - remind me to point this out to my wife... :rolleyes:

The shocking reality is that most trades people are honest and decent. Life however does sometimes conspire against you and you get someone, let's say, opportunistic. TBH, I am amazed at the response of the company you used. I know this will sound distinctly odd, but in your shoes I'd actually be tempted to give them a call and use them, IF they can do it, for your annual unvented cylinder service. Why? Because at that response I'd say it was an anomaly and they would be keen to prove to you that they can do much better.

Keep in touch ;) although not tooo much :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :D
 
Unless I missed something and without reading the whole thread again was it established why the boiler wasn't working originally and was it fixed?
 
Yorkshire Dave - I most definitely won't be using the original plumbers again! I don't trust them in the slightest. The second plumber, however, is now in my contacts file.

The reason for the surprising response, and fast turnaround of events, is that, after collecting all the facts together (thanks to this forum, and the second plumber), a constructive lawyer friend offered to have a word. He's very charming and friendly, but not someone you would want to take on in a construction dispute! A quick look at his profile would have made them come to their senses. Miraculously, straight after he got involved, my money was returned and the missing invoice appeared.
 
[QUOTE="Rob Foster, post: 1020992, member:
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..[/QUOTE]

I can`t believe just how rude you were here Rob, demanding the OP show`s us the current gas safe certificate and what has an inventory got to do with the thread plus you are nothing like the old chk you claim to be with your weekly claims of this, that and the other so what changed?
 
rpm said:
Rob Foster said:
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..
Click to expand...

I can`t believe just how rude you were here Rob, demanding the OP show`s us the current gas safe certificate and what has an inventory got to do with the thread plus you are nothing like the old chk you claim to be with your weekly claims of this, that and the other so what changed?
Click to expand...

Seems a bit arbitrary to be frank. When I used to rent my house out I did my own inventory as it was by far more accurate and detailed than the twaddle the letting agent could come up with. Will never forget the letter to me from the agent stating 'the cooker was dirty when the tenants vacated. They claim that the cooker was dirty when they moved in. The inventory states Marked Consistent with Age [I still have that cooker now I've moved into the house myself - not sure where it is marked] so we cannot prove otherwise.' Then, verbally, the agent told me to charge the tenants for cleaning as it was their responsibility to clean regardless of the state of cleanliness when they moved in.

Knowing full well that the kitchen was not dirty when the tenants had moved in, I told the agent I was unimpressed with the standard of the inventory and wondered what I had paid them for, then let the tenants go without charging them as I lacked the evidence. And never used that agent again.

Very hard to be a good landlord when most letting agents work to the above standard in my experience.
 
Actually, I do have an inventory! But, as you kindly point out RPM, Rob's earlier point had no real relevance to the thread. The professional inventory company I use is: www.green-kite.co.uk

A few interesting points were raised earlier about professional management of properties. When I first rented out our house, to 4 tenants under one tenancy agreement, I used an estate agent to fully manage the property. They were useless! They didn't do a thing. Our tenants repeatedly complained to me about how useless they were, and begged me to take over the management, as they found me so much more friendly & responsive. Based on that experience, I will never use an estate agents to manage my property again, and I advise people to manage their properties themselves, if they can.

In addition to not looking after our property, or responding to our tenants needs quickly, I found out (too late) that the estate agents were completely ripping off our tenants (ie) if an individual tenant was moving out of the house, and they had personally found a replacement tenant/friend to take their place in the household, they were being charged a whopping £450 by the estate agent for a simple name-change on the tenancy agreement! I think the estate agents repeated that scam at least twice before I found out what was going on. It was outrageous. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is estate agents do not manage properties particularly well. Homeowners, decent homeowners, do.
 
missfrances said:
Actually, I do have an inventory! But, as you kindly point out RPM, Rob's earlier point had no real relevance to the thread. The professional inventory company I use is: www.green-kite.co.uk

A few interesting points were raised earlier about professional management of properties. When I first rented out our house, to 4 tenants under one tenancy agreement, I used an estate agent to fully manage the property. Stirling Ackroyd to be precise. They were useless! They didn't do a thing. Our tenants repeatedly complained to me about how useless they were, and begged me to take over the management, as they found me so much more friendly & responsive. Based on that experience, I will never use an estate agents to manage my property again, and I advise people to manage their properties themselves, if they can.

In addition to not looking after our property, or responding to our tenants needs quickly, I found out (too late) that the estate agents were completely ripping off our tenants (ie) if an individual tenant was moving out of the house, and they had personally found a replacement tenant/friend to take their place in the household, they were being charged a whopping £450 by the estate agent for a simple name-change on the tenancy agreement! I think the estate agents repeated that scam at least twice before I found out what was going on. It was outrageous. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is estate agents do not manage properties particularly well. Homeowners, decent homeowners, do.
Click to expand...
Have a look at Vibrant they are national ,accountable and cross ref all their work. just an idea
centralheatking ...I use them for my places in Lancashire
 
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