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Expansion Vessel Upside Down?

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hallra

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Hi,

Has this expansion tank been installed upside down?
- The cold water expansion tank is install this way as well...

Or is there something special about the configuration that I haven't understood?

Surely air gets trapped with the expansion tank fitted this way?

I still have noise in my top radiators, I am bleeding everyday and I'm scratching my head trying to find the cause.
- FYI: An Air Seperator is on order.


photo2.jpg
 
Hi Harvest,

Thanks for your reply.

Yep it is on the heating side.

I don’t understand then, how does air not get trapped, as the expansion tank is on a long run of pipe work, with it being the highest point.
 
You're getting confused with an open vented header tank I think. With a bottle like this there should always be air in the bottle. The normal issue with these though is that the air pressure in it is not maintained correctly and should be checked annually at least. As the pressure in the tank increases and the water expands the expansion pushes into the bottle which has an air pocket in it, when a tap is opened any water in the bottle gets pushed back in to the system. If the air pressure in the bottle isn't maintained then this bottle can be completely full of water and when the pressure in the system increases the water has nowhere to go and the pressure relief valve at the bottle will open to get rid of the pressure. The problem then is that they normally never close properly and need to be replaced.
 
Sorry I didn’t explain myself properly.

There is a diaphragm within the expansion vessel, one side has air, the other side, the system side, has water.

The point of the air side is to allow the expansion of the water on the system side, without a significant pressure increase.

My question was what if air was trapped on the system side, therefore air on both sides of the diaphragm, would this cause a problem?
- Air would presumably be trapped if the system has been emptied of water and then refilled, as there is no way of bleeding that part of the circuit, as only one pipe to the expansion vessel.
- I know there is another pipe but that route is blocked by the safety value.

I’m asking these maybe dumb questions as I’ve got a lot of trapped air in the sealed heating system that should not be there and I can’t work out what the cause is.
- I’m bleeding daily two radiators upstairs and they constantly have good amounts of air in them very soon after they have bleed, as a consequence there is a lot of noise being produce.

I have tried many things to resolve and still I have a problem, next try is an air separator.
 
Yeah I know, I’m clutching at straws, this has been going on for weeks and I’ve tried so many things I’ve got desperate.
- I’ve had a plumber look at it who couldn’t find anything wrong.

I’ve just had an email from someone at Altecnic, they have offered to talk through the problem in detail with me to see if they can work out the cause.

- A lot of the system components are from Altecnic/Caleffi, so I had sent them a speculative email.
 
The expansion vessel won't be the source of your problems, any air that does end up in it from the CH water doesn't cause any issues as it acts in the same way as the air behind the bladder, there's no way you'd get enough air in there to alter the performance of the vessel and it wouldn't cause any noises.

With regards to the having to constantly bleed your rads, is this a new system? Have you had any alterations made to an existing system? Has an inhibitor been added?
 
I am going to contradict the thinking a little by saying that a heating system vessel ideally should be fitted with water side upmost.
Many diagrams also show them fitted with water connection upmost and straight into heating pipework, or if a high spot then an auto vent shown fitted.
But it doesn’t seem to matter which way you install them
 
I was told by an agent who supplied all types and sizes of expansion vessels that the colour has nothing to do with the type of vessel.
I do remember they supplied a potable vessel to me that was red, - identical in colour to heating system vessels.
Never seen that again though.
The large stainless steel flange on some of the potable vessels is a giveaway.
 
White, Blue, Grey & Silver (stainless steel) = wholesome / potable water usage. (or so it use to be)
Red = Heating (or so it use to be)

It was all to do with the type of rubber used, I seem to remember that natural rubber was used in potable as it didn't support bug growth but they couldn't handle high temperatures so neoprene was used for heating.

My understanding is the same as Best, manufacturers (some at least) are moving over to red for everything because of the newer types of rubbers used, so we will all need to start checking the reds on potable systems before condemning the original installer.
 
Constant air ingress is sometimes caused by a poor seal on the vacuum side of the pump. I think I've posted this before but I did an experiment with some clear hose connected to a circulating pump and put in a fibre washer with a scratch across it on the vacuum side of the pump. Whilst it never leaked water it did show a stream of bubbles being pulled into the system when the pump was running. This air would then usually move to a high point e.g. upstairs radiator. The air ingress was stopped by the installation of rubber pump washers.

I made this setup in the workshop because someone did not believe air could get in at the pump without showing a leak when the pump wasn't running. I proved it can! Worth a look checking the washers at the pump, tighten them if possible or replace them with rubber ones if they aren't already. It's worth a try!
 
chris watkins said:
White, Blue, Grey & Silver (stainless steel) = wholesome / potable water usage. (or so it use to be)
Red = Heating (or so it use to be)

It was all to do with the type of rubber used, I seem to remember that natural rubber was used in potable as it didn't support bug growth but they couldn't handle high temperatures so neoprene was used for heating.

My understanding is the same as Best, manufacturers (some at least) are moving over to red for everything because of the newer types of rubbers used, so we will all need to start checking the reds on potable systems before condemning the original installer.
Click to expand...

It's also about the internal surface covering of the vessel. So, typically, they are either glass lined or stainless.
 
Riley said:
My advice see if they have a recommended technician
Click to expand...

I've sent them the videos that I haven't been able to post on here.

I went through all that's been done so far:

Changed pump as it failed.
- changed to a Grundfos Alpha 3.
Changed Auto bypass to Manual Bypass.
- Alpha 3 requires it for Auto Adapt.
Balance System with Alpha 3 balancing software.
Changed Automatic Air Vent.
- It started leaking.
Changed expansion tank.
- It leaked air and was sized too small.
Drain, Cleaner, Flush, Inhibator *2.
- With cleaner in system for 2 days, then 21 days.
Took radiators off and manually flushed with hose.

And what I have planned:

Add Magnaclean Professional 2.
Add Spirotech Spirovent Air Seporator.
Change Pressure Guage and PRV.
- Gauge is not increasing when system heats up.
Change pump washers as suggested by Stigster.

They have basically said they agree with the plan, as they would be recommending the same.
- If all this doesn't fix the issue they will put me in touch with one of their advanced technicians.
 
I know this is quite an old thread now but have you actually had a plumber out that deals specifically with system design
 
Pickwickpick said:
The expansion vessel won't be the source of your problems, any air that does end up in it from the CH water doesn't cause any issues as it acts in the same way as the air behind the bladder, there's no way you'd get enough air in there to alter the performance of the vessel and it wouldn't cause any noises.

With regards to the having to constantly bleed your rads, is this a new system? Have you had any alterations made to an existing system? Has an inhibitor been added?
Click to expand...

Hi Pickwickpick,

The house is a Persimmons New Build, 3 yrs old, I wouldn't trust the install, as Persimmons have delivered a very bad quality build.
- In the post above, I've listed what has recently changed.
- Forgot to add a two port valve was reinstalled as in had been installed wrong way round.
- In the past, due to failures, 2 * 2 port valve and 2 * pump replaced.
- I suspect originally no inhibator in system, due to the muck that come out when cleaned/flushed.
 
Riley said:
I know this is quite an old thread now but have you actually had a plumber out that deals specifically with system design
Click to expand...

No, but I've had a G3 Enginner/Plumber out but he appeared to know less than me and showed no interest in getting to bottom of problem.

If I could find someone with the right knowledge/skills who wouldn't rip me off and actually wanted to work on this, I would gladly get them in.
- I am disabled, not well, on long term sick, the last thing I should be doing is all this work.

If I do those planned changes and it doesn't solve, I'll be looking for help on here to identify some one who can solve this.
 
JVTrades said:
How old are the radiators? are they gassing out? when you bleed does it smell like rotten eggs? Are there any auto air vents as these can sometimes allow air in too?
Click to expand...

The Rads are 3 yrs old.
No sure what you mean by gassing out.
No smell and gas isn't flamable.
Yes one auto air vent, its brand new as the last leaked.
- I did ask a question in previous post about position of this valve, as the water flows directly down away from this into the Hot Water Cylinder in case it is pulling air. Unfortuately, I didn't get an answer, but presume if it was wrong someone would have said something.

Boiler also 3yrs, it's a new build, it does make a little kettling, but it's silent when compared to rad noise.
 
Stigster said:
Constant air ingress is sometimes caused by a poor seal on the vacuum side of the pump. I think I've posted this before but I did an experiment with some clear hose connected to a circulating pump and put in a fibre washer with a scratch across it on the vacuum side of the pump. Whilst it never leaked water it did show a stream of bubbles being pulled into the system when the pump was running. This air would then usually move to a high point e.g. upstairs radiator. The air ingress was stopped by the installation of rubber pump washers.

I made this setup in the workshop because someone did not believe air could get in at the pump without showing a leak when the pump wasn't running. I proved it can! Worth a look checking the washers at the pump, tighten them if possible or replace them with rubber ones if they aren't already. It's worth a try!
Click to expand...

Hi Stigster,

Interesting suggestion...

That would logically make sense, I do hear air movement at the pump when it is on and I think the noise problem started after the pump was installed...

I didn't notice if the plumber used the new washers that came with the pump.
- I had bought new Pegler valves from screwfix but plumber said valves were no good as they weren't prone to leaking(?), so didn't use them and he used some from back of his van.

Would it be worth changing valves as well?
 
Hi Guys,

I have a caleffi PRV in my hands, to replace the current one, as when heating the system the gauge doesn't move.
- it does appear to move correctly, when pressurising via cold feed.

Before I went to replace the PRV, I had a quick look at instructions...

In bold text it states do not install upside down...

Well the current one is upside down, I slapped my forehead and growled!

So the question is, what are the consequences of installing the PRV upside down? Am I going to need to repipe this?

I'm surprised as no one said the original was upside down, so perhaps the instructions are not great?

Please left me know as I'm sat here with the heating off and drained down wondering what to do?


Thanks.

Richard
 
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