Gas Engineers > What is the correct procedure attending a boiler breakdown?

Harvest Fields · Nov 12, 2018

ShaunCorbs said:
dont need to tt on land lord gas safety certificates

Which is absolutely terrible as it is a rented property and I believe it is more important to do it then when doing a service.

Harvest Fields · Nov 12, 2018

Also @ShaunCorbs & @firemant isnt what you are both describing a KW rating and not a gas rating. A gas rating for a 30kw boiler is about 3.2kw not 30kw? Or am I missing something here?

firemant · Nov 12, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
Also @ShaunCorbs & @firemant isnt what you are both describing a KW rating and not a gas rating. A gas rating for a 30kw boiler is about 3.2kw not 30kw? Or am I missing something here?

I don't quite understand your post, HF.
Probably strictly speaking, a gas rate would be measured in M3 but after saying Kw is not a gas rating, you go onto suggest it is.
A 30Kw boiler will be typically about 31/32Kw input, not 3.2. was that a typo?

firemant · Nov 12, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
Which is absolutely terrible as it is a rented property and I believe it is more important to do it then when doing a service.

You are probably correct. But the only time you HAVE to do a TT is after turning a meter back on. Not strictly necessary for a service. Unless directed so by the MIs.

Harvest Fields · Nov 12, 2018

firemant said:
I don't quite understand your post, HF.
Probably strictly speaking, a gas rate would be measured in M3 but after saying Kw is not a gas rating, you go onto suggest it is.
A 30Kw boiler will be typically about 31/32Kw input, not 3.2. was that a typo?

I mean that this is a gas rate mate

firemant · Nov 12, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
I mean that this is a gas rate mate

View attachment 35443

HF, apologies f I still have the wrong end of your stick

The chart above is, indeed, a rate chart. But the measurements are in M3, which I intimated earlier is strictly speaking the "correct" way.

Got to go to work now, will expand later, unless someone beats me to it

Harvest Fields · Nov 12, 2018

Ok mate. That would be good as when I was being taught on and off the job. The chart above was referred to as a gas rate.

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

Any more clarification on this?

ShaunCorbs · Nov 13, 2018

My figures are direct on the meter to give you x amount of kw

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

ShaunCorbs said:
My figures are direct on the meter to give you x amount of kw

But my view is that what you are both taking about is an output rating not a gas rate.

ShaunCorbs · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
But my view is that what you are both taking about is an output rating not a gas rate.

It is a gas rate (meter) comes out at 30kw

Eg

004.10
004.20

On the meter

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

ShaunCorbs said:
It is a gas rate (meter) comes out at 30kw

Eg

004.10
004.20

On the meter

But when wou ask a manufacturer’s The Gas rate of their boiler I.e a 30kw they will tell you it is 3.0 so .100 x 30 = 3.0

ShaunCorbs · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
But when wou ask a manufacturer’s The Gas rate of their boiler I.e a 30kw they will tell you it is 3.0 so .100 x 30 = 3.0

Or 30 / 10.65 2.8m3h

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

ShaunCorbs said:
Or 30 / 10.65 2.8m3h

I get that, but when you do this calculation 2.8 x 10.65 = 30 ish kw. The end figure which is 30 kw is not the boilers Gas rate it is an output rating.

ShaunCorbs · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
I get that, but when you do this calculation 2.8 x 10.65 = 30 ish kw. The end figure which is 30 kw is not the boilers Gas rate it is an output rating.

I don't get what your trying to say ?

You want the input rating ?

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

ShaunCorbs said:
its not hard if you know if you dont

write the number down time then write the numbers down work it out from there or time it if imperial

or if you do know what kw should give you like

.10 is 30kw
.095 is 28kw
.08 is 24 kw
.05 is 15kw

My point is, that this is an input/output rating dependant on how far you got with your calculations and not a gas rate.

firemant · Nov 13, 2018

.

HF: Like Shaun, I am slightly confused as to your line of thought. The GAS RATE is the INPUT, which arguably should be measured in M3, but we tend to do the calcs to Kw. The chart you produced, IIRC, showed the input in M3. So it IS the rate chart, as you understood.

But where are you reading your figures? The chart shows a 30Kw boiler as having a nominal input of 3.27M3.

Incidentally, that is the figure often copied onto the benchmark

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

I think we are arguing the same thing mate. But I call the figure in the bold circle the gas rate and the figure in the thin circle the input/output rating. Ignore the exact figures I wasn’t getting them from anywhere they were just random figures

firemant · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
I think we are arguing the same thing mate. But I call the figure in the bold circle the gas rate and the figure in the thin circle the input/output rating. Ignore the exact figures I wasn’t getting them from anywhere they were just random figures

View attachment 35478

Blimey, HF, they reckon a marathon is hard work

.
Yes, the 30Kw (thin circle) is the nominal output - but I don't really get your " input / output rating" description. it is simply the designed Output.

The (thick circle) IS the nominal Input, therefore the "gas rate" you are looking for. However, most of us, I think, would present the "gas rate" in KW/hr's.

So, yes, essentially we are in agreement.

What was your question?

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

firemant said:
Blimey, HF, they reckon a marathon is hard work .
Yes, the 30Kw (thin circle) is the nominal output - but I don't really get your " input / output rating" description. it is simply the designed Output.

The (thick circle) IS the nominal Input, therefore the "gas rate" you are looking for. However, most of us, I think, would present the "gas rate" in KW/hr's.

So, yes, essentially we are in agreement.

What was your question?

I don’t have one

it’s been a long day. Sorry mate.

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

Input/output

firemant · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
Input/output

View attachment 35480

Input/output are 2 different things on that data badge

That is a 24Kw boiler? The 24Kw is the advertised OUTPUT, but the actual MAXIMUM OUTPUT, as it happens, is 24.7Kw.
(Advertising a 24.7Kw boiler as such is not as snappy as saying "24", although I do not know why they don't just do the data plate at an Input relating to a 24Kw output. But they are not alone)

The MAX INPUT is 25.7Kw. The boiler is range ratable, between 11Kw and 25.7Kw INPUT. It is this range which you would be looking for, and verifying against, when as rating.

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

firemant said:
Input/output are 2 different things on that data badge

That is a 24Kw boiler? The 24Kw is the advertised OUTPUT, but the actual MAXIMUM OUTPUT, as it happens, is 24.7Kw.
(Advertising a 24.7Kw boiler as such is not as snappy as saying "24", although I do not know why they don't just do the data plate at an Input relating to a 24Kw output. But they are not alone)

The MAX INPUT is 25.7Kw. The boiler is range ratable, between 11Kw and 25.7Kw INPUT. It is this range which you would be looking for, and verifying against, when as rating.

I understand that mate. But what I was saying is that at college here. We are taught that the gas rating is the lower figure and the output rating is the higher figure. That is what I was saying.

firemant · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
I understand that mate. But what I was saying is that at college here. We are taught that the gas rating is the lower figure and the output rating is the higher figure. That is what I was saying.

Back to front, HF. Or is that a typo.? Are you still training, HF?

The Gas rate is the Consumption (Input) (higher figure), which HAS to be greater than the OUTPUT (lower figure).

(I KNOW, before someone comes back with 103% efficiency

)

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

firemant said:
Back to front, HF. Or is that a typo.? Are you still training, HF?

The Gas rate is the Consumption (Input) (higher figure), which HAS to be greater than the OUTPUT (lower figure).

(I KNOW, before someone comes back with 103% efficiency )

I’m too tired to carry this on mate. I will just agree with you.

firemant · Nov 13, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
I’m too tired to carry this on mate. I will just agree with you.

Okay. But you really do need to know. It is actually not difficult. You need to speak to your trainer, if you are, in fact, still training.

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

firemant said:
Okay. But you really do need to know. It is actually not difficult. You need to speak to your trainer, if you are, in fact, still training.

Mate. Let me explain this to you. Either we have got crossed wires here or it is not me that is wrong. What it sound like you are talking about is a equivant heat input. (Not a gas rate) a gas rate is how much gas an appliance uses in 1 hour, not the figure you get once you times this figure by 10.65, or whatever calorific value you are using. (This figure is an input rating) I cannot explain it any clearer. The diagram below if the best I could find.

Harvest Fields · Nov 13, 2018

firemant said:
Okay. But you really do need to know. It is actually not difficult. You need to speak to your trainer, if you are, in fact, still training.

Mate. Let me explain this to you. Either we have got crossed wires here or it is not me that is wrong. What it sound like you are talking about is a equivant heat input. (Not a gas rate) a gas rate is how much gas an appliance uses in 1 hour, not the figure you get once you times this figure by 10.65, or whatever calorific value you are using. (This figure is an input rating) I cannot explain it any clearer. The diagram below if the best I could find.

firemant said:
Okay. But you really do need to know. It is actually not difficult. You need to speak to your trainer, if you are, in fact, still training.

I’ve been qualified for 12 years mate. Not ages but long enough.

dan_the_plumber · Nov 17, 2018

My advise is read and understand the regs FULLY. These are what we’re all working to anyway. You will get better and better with experience. But always check check check check check check check

Harvest Fields · Nov 18, 2018

Is that aimed at me mate. Or someone else?

Lewis Lawson · Nov 23, 2018

I’m a training gas engineer what is this 26.9 you refer to ?

Harvest Fields · Nov 23, 2018

Lewis Lawson said:
I’m a training gas engineer what is this 26.9 you refer to ?

Until you are trained you will never know mwaw wa wa wa wa

dan_the_plumber · Nov 23, 2018

Harvest Fields said:
Also @ShaunCorbs & @firemant isnt what you are both describing a KW rating and not a gas rating. A gas rating for a 30kw boiler is about 3.2kw not 30kw? Or am I missing something here?

3.2 M3/H

Harvest Fields · Nov 23, 2018

dan_the_plumber said:
3.2 M2/H

3.2 m3/H

Harvest Fields · Nov 23, 2018

dan_the_plumber said:
3.2 M3/H

Nice edit.

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