New to the forum and boiler question

[Howard Freeborn]

Hi all. New to the forum and I thought I would post a question.
I have a Potterton Performa 28. I have had it serviced by the same chap (Professional Plumber Gas safe Registered) every year and he is a friend as we are both gigging musicians.
As someone that builds power amps for the cinema industry I have electrical engineering knowledge/qualifications. There are cases when my friend has identified the problem and told me the part to get and I have obtained the part and fitted and he then pops around checks and I give him a fee for checking and ensuring done correct. Always simple issues over the last few years, anything tricky he does.
He is set to do a pressure flush on the system in October and at the same time a service. He is away abroad at the moment and not contactable... so whilst The Performa is switched only to the water setting the hot water tap even set to zero on the boiler will measure 60 degree plus and the water will be very hot... I was thinking it could be the High Limit Overheat Thermostat Stat 248079. The same problem occurs if switched to radiator and hot water setting.
Any thoughts? cheers

 

[Gasmk1]

you wont get an answer as you are not gas safe either call a gas safe engineer out or wait for your friend to get back. as you are not gas safe you are not competent to work on the appliance.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

you wont get an answer as you are not gas safe either call a gas safe engineer out or wait for your friend to get back. as you are not gas safe you are not competent to work on the appliance.

Sorry to disagree with you Gasmk1 but there are instances that are stated on the GAS SAFE REGISTER that specifically state, and I quote,
'What Gas work can be undertaken by other tradespersons'
If the work required only involves the replacement of a non gas component such as a water circulating pump or central heating control valve, housed within the boilers casing, the work can be undertaken by another competent tradesperson eg plumber/electrician providing the work can be done without breaking a combustion seal...'
As I am a qualified electrician and we have checked this with gas safe (see link) I am allowed to do certain jobs...
https://www.User PlumbersForums.net...legally-work-on-a-gas-appliance-factsheet.pdf

anyone have any ideas?

 

[rpm]

So the question is; Does removing the casing mean you are breaking a combustion seal on a Potterton Performa 28?

 

[Howard Freeborn]

So the question is; Does removing the casing mean you are breaking a combustion seal on a Potterton Performa 28?

No, check the link and it states what it is plus I and my plumber have checked on this, they call it decorative casing and it is not a combustion seal... the Gas safe have said to us that I can change parts on the board and a pump, which I have...

 

[Harvest Fields]

I’m out.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

I’m out.

Not sure what that means?
I am guessing by your thumbs up to the first reply to my question that I, a qualified electrical engineer, am not qualified to work on areas of the boiler even though the instances are cited on the Gas Safe website and I have checked with Gas safe in the past.
Fair enough.

 

[Harvest Fields]

A decorative cover is a front panel only. The internal panel you are not allowed to remove. The pump and pcb you mentioned are indeed behind the decorative panel. (So I believe) however as the stats are there for SAFETY you are not allowed to change them and need a qualified Gas Safe Engineer.

 

[rpm]

No, check the link and it states what it is plus I and my plumber have checked on this, they call it decorative casing and it is not a combustion seal... the Gas safe have said to us that I can change parts on the board and a pump, which I have...

Down Tiger, I have that link on cut & paste so no need to read it.
My point was does it apply to your boiler and for the record I don`t do Potterton`s so I don`t know ok?

 

[Ric2013]

To be frank, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with that overheat stat. Caveat that I am not a registered gas installer myself.

 

[Ric2013]

however as the stats are there for SAFETY you are not allowed to change them and need a qualified Gas Safe Engineer.

But they don't regulate the gas side so if the work does not involve 'disturbing any gas carrying component or disturbing a module that controls the combustion process', then we could argue that, from a gas point of view, the OP is fine. Whether he may fall foul of some other law is another matter.

 

[Harvest Fields]

But they don't regulate the gas side so if the work does not involve 'disturbing any gas carrying component or disturbing a module that controls the combustion process', then we could argue that, from a gas point of view, the OP is fine. Whether he may fall foul of some other law is another matter.

As you see fit to keep on about this issue.

1- The key is in the name, A SAFETY DEVICE
2- He also had to loosen the 2 x screws holding the outer case in place. He then lifted the outer case off the boiler. I wasn’t going to be picky about this as he hadn’t removed the inner case.

 

[Gasmk1]

But they don't regulate the gas side so if the work does not involve 'disturbing any gas carrying component or disturbing a module that controls the combustion process', then we could argue that, from a gas point of view, the OP is fine. Whether he may fall foul of some other law is another matter.

but they do regulate the gas side the thermistor through the PCB modulates the gas valve and the overheat thermostat shuts of the boiler and as pointed out they are safety devices.

 

[Ric2013]

The point about screws was an example, not an absolute. The critical point is whether the casing ' forms a part of the combustion circuit' or not. So a Main heat only boiler has a decorative casing from a gas point of view, but it is an electrical enclosure.

Back to the task in hand. My impression was that this is a zombie boiler and that it had a mechanical stat, not a thermister. But now, I see it isn't, so you are right that any temperature sensor is likely to be a gas control device.

But my original point stands, the OP doesn't understand what is wrong and is wasting his time IMO.

 

[Harvest Fields]

The point about screws was an example, not an absolute. The critical point is whether the casing ' forms a part of the combustion circuit' or not. So a Main heat only boiler has a decorative casing from a gas point of view, but it is an electrical enclosure.

Back to the task in hand. My impression was that this is a zombie boiler and that it had a mechanical stat, not a thermister. But now, I see it isn't, so you are right that any temperature sensor is likely to be a gas control device.

But my original point stands, the OP doesn't understand what is wrong and is wasting his time IMO.

I was also using the screws as an example that’s why I said it was not here or there.

 

[Scott_D]

After ANY work on a boiler you would want to do the 26.9 checks

Unless your friend left you his Analyser while on holiday you won't be able to do that.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

A decorative cover is a front panel only. The internal panel you are not allowed to remove. The pump and pcb you mentioned are indeed behind the decorative panel. (So I believe) however as the stats are there for SAFETY you are not allowed to change them and need a qualified Gas Safe Engineer.

As you see fit to keep on about this issue.

1- The key is in the name, A SAFETY DEVICE
2- He also had to loosen the 2 x screws holding the outer case in place. He then lifted the outer case off the boiler. I wasn’t going to be picky about this as he hadn’t removed the inner case.

View attachment 34433

The key is in the pdf who is allowed to and the part about non pressurised areas...
I do keep on this issue as the outer casing is not screwed (it slides up and away) nor does it make a seal and there is no internal panel.
As we have checked in the past with Gas Safe as per the regs in regarding my particular boiler and been given the okay on electrical and non gas seal (pressure) areas as per the examples shown on the Gas Safe pdf (I have tested and repaired the PCB in the past) I'm not even sure why this debate on the guide lines is persisting, it clearly states . With that okay from Gas Safe, and they pointed me in the direction of the pdf guidelines, as a qualified electrical engineer I am allowed to do certain jobs not involving gas seals.
As it happens, someone has contacted me via another forum that has seen this and is a member here and used to work for Corgi and is a gas safe registered plumber and knows me via the electrical forum... not wishing to get into a debate on semantics on the pros and cons of the Gas safe pdf guidelines he emailed me some of his ideas of what it might be and I have had some other colleagues present some ideas ...
Thank you to those here that have put some ideas. I have an idea now on what it is.

 

[Harvest Fields]

The key is in the pdf who is allowed to and the part about non pressurised areas...
I do keep on this issue as the outer casing is not screwed (it slides up and away) nor does it make a seal and there is no internal panel.
As we have checked in the past with Gas Safe as per the regs in regarding my particular boiler and been given the okay on electrical and non gas seal (pressure) areas as per the examples shown on the Gas Safe pdf (I have tested and repaired the PCB in the past) I'm not even sure why this debate on the guide lines is persisting, it clearly states . With that okay from Gas Safe, and they pointed me in the direction of the pdf guidelines, as a qualified electrical engineer I am allowed to do certain jobs not involving gas seals.
As it happens, someone has contacted me via another forum that has seen this and is a member here and used to work for Corgi and is a gas safe registered plumber and knows me via the electrical forum... not wishing to get into a debate on semantics on the pros and cons of the Gas safe pdf guidelines he emailed me some of his ideas of what it might be and I have had some other colleagues present some ideas .
Thank you to those here that have put some ideas. I have an idea now on what it is.

Glad you have an idea. Glad it wasn’t me that gave it you. Sorry I couldn’t be much help. I would like to see the written permission given by Gas Safe stating that you can change the stats and not a telephone conversation. But it sounds like you’re all sorted.

 

[Chalked]

Hi
You obviously know more than us lot on the matter. So don’t understand why your after advice.
Top and bottom of it is, your very unlikely to get caught, even if you do tamper with the combustion seal or anything to do with the gas side.
But. we are trying to be responsible and just because you say you know what you are doing, is no proof of correct knowledge.
So, keep your family safe and employ a Local gsr to fix it.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

After ANY work on a boiler you would want to do the 26.9 checks

Unless your friend left you his Analyser while on holiday you won't be able to do that.

I have checked this before when replacing a thermostat on my boiler with Corgi and then Gas Safe and HSE ... 'Regulation 2(6)(c) - exception for certain control devices 26 Work on any gas appliance control device which is primarily intended for use by the consumer (eg removal or replacement of an electric thermostat or an on/off timer switch) has been expressly excluded from the regulations, where this work does not involve breaking into a gasway, ie where there is no risk of gas escape, or likely interference with the safety of the gas installation.'

'expressley excluded' plus I have called Gas Safe in the past and queried this... 40 years a qualified contract electrical engineer...
I have never done work where I have touched a seal or pressurised section.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Ask them to put it into writting. I bet they do not. Also the clue is in the wording (likely interference with the SAFETY of the gas installation) (limit stat/overheat stat is part of the safety of the boiler) anything that is to do with safety you cannot touch no matter how many years you have been a Sparks. I’m done.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

Hi
You obviously know more than us lot on the matter. So don’t understand why your after advice.
Top and bottom of it is, your very unlikely to get caught, even if you do tamper with the combustion seal or anything to do with the gas side.
But. we are trying to be responsible and just because you say you what you are doing, is no proof of correct knowledge.
So, keep your family safe and employ a Local gsr to fix it.

I'm asking, as I have on other forums, if it is via my knowledge base a simple electrical base (thermostat etc) issue I would rather not pay a large call out fee for a £4 thermister or Thermostat... I'm a single dad struggling to make ends meet as I have 3 kids and have to do less day time work... I am having a full service in a month, as I have done every year, by a Gas Safe plumber, and a full system pressurised flush (I have that done every 5 years) plus a boiler Magnetic Heating Filter fitted. So I am simply trying to get a small problem sorted now. 40 years a qualified electrical contract engineer and I know electronics and the difference within a pressurised system.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

Ask them to put it into writting. I bet they do not. Also the clue is in the wording (likely interference with the SAFETY of the gas installation) (limit stat/overheat stat is part of the safety of the boiler) anything that is to do with safety you cannot touch no matter how many years you have been a Sparks. I’m done.

I will ask them again tomorrow and for it in writing, as I have done in the past when Corgi and now Gas Safe. I have in the past been asked by Corgi and Gas Safe plumbers to test board components (I have an AP tester) and done with approval.
I am surprised you even reply in a negative if no wish to help. You made your point in the first reply. I have posted the guide lines and the exclusions.
Caps do not make the point anymore valid. Rather the opposite.

 

[rpm]

This is becoming boring now.

 

[Chalked]

Just read the initial post again.
The power flush should sort your problem. It sounds like a poor boiler circulation issue.

 

[Ric2013]

I have checked this before when replacing a thermostat on my boiler with Corgi and then Gas Safe and HSE . 'Regulation 2(6)(c) - exception for certain control devices 26 Work on any gas appliance control device which is primarily intended for use by the consumer (eg removal or replacement of an electric thermostat or an on/off timer switch) has been expressly excluded from the regulations, where this work does not involve breaking into a gasway, ie where there is no risk of gas escape, or likely interference with the safety of the gas installation.'

'expressley excluded' plus I have called Gas Safe in the past and queried this... 40 years a qualified contract electrical engineer...
I have never done work where I have touched a seal or pressurised section.

I'm not going to start making this a moral issue, but on a technical note, my understanding is that since modern boilers are effectively computer controlled, a simple thermostat is probably not that simple unless it's a [*** xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx - if you know what I mean: good; if not: never mind] in which case, it actually is that simple. If you look at the examples you have given they are about the user interface, not about sensors that may well allow the PCB to interpret how best to regulate the boiler operation, so I'm not convinced you would be on the right side of the law.

Point is, people who are trained in safety issues tend to be serious about it, and, this being a public forum, ANYONE could read this. So regardless of how many years' experience you have as an electrical engineer, you are unlikely to get much help on this forum for the reason that your neighbour, who is not, might well read this forum and also have a go.

 

[Scott_D]

Can I assume you have tried testing for the duff component with your multimeter?

 

[Ric2013]

I will ask them again tomorrow and for it in writing, as I have done in the past when Corgi and now Gas Safe. I have in the past been asked by Corgi and Gas Safe plumbers to test board components (I have an AP tester) and done with approval.
I am surprised you even reply in a negative if no wish to help. You made your point in the first reply. I have posted the guide lines and the exclusions.
Caps do not make the point anymore valid. Rather the opposite.

As someone who sees your point, even though I disagree with you, I hope you will put this letter up for us to see?

 

[Howard Freeborn]

As someone who sees your point, even though I disagree with you, I hope you will put this letter up for us to see?

I will if they do so rather than just a phone confirmation, I would hope for at the least an email with a named person confirming the allowances.
To be honest I want to know if the exclusions they have sent links to me in the past showing the exclusions and the fact I have worked on boiler pcbs in the past at the request of gas safe and further back corgi engineers would effectively flag an issue that there are conflicts within the organisation on the wording as those exclusions are still oin the sites.

 

[Ric2013]

To be honest I want to know if the exclusions they have sent links to me in the past showing the exclusions and the fact I have worked on boiler pcbs in the past at the request of gas safe and further back corgi engineers would effectively flag an issue that there are conflicts within the organisation on the wording as those exclusions are still oin the sites.

That wouldn't surprise me, and it would be good to highlight.

 

[Howard Freeborn]

Can I assume you have tried testing for the duff component with your multimeter?

I did check the whole board on the AP and my Fluke... all fine... there were issues on some of the Performa boards in the past and I seem to recqall that my problem was on a part... but that's okay. I haven't tested the Gas Sensor Thermister or the over heat thermostat as I was into the kids dinner and bedtime routine... I'm knackered now (I have Trivial emphysema and have never smoked) ... I was hoping someone would say... 'ah yes, that sounds like the...'
After school run tomorrow I will check those... just heard my plumber friend is back home on Friday so with the temperature set to very minimal the water is not scalding, still hot and not right...

 

[Howard Freeborn]

I'm not going to start making this a moral issue, but on a technical note, my understanding is that since modern boilers are effectively computer controlled, a simple thermostat is probably not that simple unless it's a [*** xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx - if you know what I mean: good; if not: never mind] in which case, it actually is that simple. If you look at the examples you have given they are about the user interface, not about sensors that may well allow the PCB to interpret how best to regulate the boiler operation, so I'm not convinced you would be on the right side of the law.

Point is, people who are trained in safety issues tend to be serious about it, and, this being a public forum, ANYONE could read this. So regardless of how many years' experience you have as an electrical engineer, you are unlikely to get much help on this forum for the reason that your neighbour, who is not, might well read this forum and also have a go.

This a Potterton Performa 28... not modern and not a condensing boiler, there is no CPU... it is old but serviced every year (by qualified and registered Gas Safe plumber) and all parts needed to be replaced as per the guide lines in the service of the unit have been. It works well. I am fully aware of the regs as mention and the exceptions (which i am getting clarified) especially as I have worked on boiler boards at the request of Corgi and Gas safe plumbers.

 

[Ric2013]

This a Potterton Performa 28... not modern and not a condensing boiler, there is no CPU...

Garr. Why do manufacturers give very different boilers almost identical names? Next thing we know, the Fiat Cinquecento will have a 1400cc engine

 

[Martyn2]

That wouldn't surprise me, and it would be good to highlight.

I'm not going to start making this a moral issue, but on a technical note, my understanding is that since modern boilers are effectively computer controlled, a simple thermostat is probably not that simple unless it's a [*** xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx - if you know what I mean: good; if not: never mind] in which case, it actually is that simple. If you look at the examples you have given they are about the user interface, not about sensors that may well allow the PCB to interpret how best to regulate the boiler operation, so I'm not convinced you would be on the right side of the law.

Point is, people who are trained in safety issues tend to be serious about it, and, this being a public forum, ANYONE could read this. So regardless of how many years' experience you have as an electrical engineer, you are unlikely to get much help on this forum for the reason that your neighbour, who is not, might well read this forum and also have a go.

I am a little confused here. Is it the case that you can be gas safe but know little or nothing about electronics?

 

[Ric2013]

Martyn, not sure what you are getting at.

FWIW, most gas engineers I have met do not seem to know an awful lot about electronics. The average RGI seems to be more a technician that can probably test against manufacturer's specification and replace assemblies than a designer.