What Knowledge & Skills should a new Plumber have?

[chris watkins]

What subjects should be taught to new plumbing trainees?
The new plumbing qualification is only Level 3 what should they know at the end of the training?
It has got to cover the whole of the country both rural, towns & cities.
(& don't do the one about the best cup of tea etc please)

 

[OffshoreGas]

Having never served an plumbing apprenticeship I don’t know what you come out with. If I were recruiting the industrial equivalent is expect them to have:

1) basic band tool skills including measuring/marking.

2) Competent in basic safe electrical installation

3) understands the principals of pipework and fittings.

4) a reasonable grasp if physics and maths ideally somewhere around A level equivalent.

5) a good understanding of the operating principals of instruments and controls.

6) strong communication skills.

7) an appreciation for the basics of fault finding.

 

[Burger]

Hi Chris,

I still have my heinemann level 3 book (NVQ and Tech Certificate) which teaches the following subjects:

Customer care
Hot and cold water
Unvented hot water systems
Above ground discharge systems
Central heating systems (including boilers) - also shows wiring of systems
Gas safety and supply
Gas appliances
Plan work activities - covers design principles etc

Not sure if this covers the whole country, but it’s what was taught to me (north west England).

Cheers

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Chris,

I still have my heinemann level 3 book (NVQ and Tech Certificate) which teaches the following subjects:

Customer care
Hot and cold water
Unvented hot water systems
Above ground discharge systems
Central heating systems (including boilers) - also shows wiring of systems
Gas safety and supply
Gas appliances
Plan work activities - covers design principles etc

Not sure if this covers the whole country, but it’s what was taught to me (north west England).

Cheers

Hi CBW
How relevant was all that to what you do now?
I know it is difficult looking back cos we all forget stuff will did & learn new stuff. Should we be doing the gas at that stage, what if you were not in a gas area ?
Was there anything looking back you wish had beed included or stuff you now feel was a waste of time?
Thanks for your time.
Chris

 

[Burger]

Hello Chris,

So I would say most of it is relevant to what I do now, and some that was relevant, but I suppose isn’t as relevant now - I’m a boiler break down engineer for a local housing trust (which is where I time served). I started as a plumber and none of the unvented dhw, heating and gas was really relevant at the time. Stayed as a plumber for approx 12 years, in which time I lost out on my unvented, and didn’t do much gas or heating work. Now into my 14th year and gas/heating is quite plentiful albeit mainly maintenance, and don’t do a great deal of “plumbing”.

If I wasn’t in a gas area then I can only assume the college would have taught oil?

I’m not sure if there’s anything I wish was in the course, the best experience is from working on this stuff on a daily basis - I think partly I regret not going anywhere else job wise as I now feel I lack in certain areas. Most of our boilers are Vaillant combi’s, intergas combi’s, and a few Worcester’s. This leaves me lacking in working on zone valves, programmers, wiring, pumps, true fault finding etc.

Hope some of this long windedness has made some sense?

 

[Millsy 82]

When I did my apprenticeship level 2 was all about the fitting side of things so pulling bends, soldering, compression fittings, screwed fittings (iron) installation of cylinders, boilers sanitary ware and so on.

Level 3 was more designing. We had to design a 4 bed house then had to design the plumbing for the whole house including pipe sizing rad sizes soil pipe requirements and so on we then had to write a list of all the materials required we had to do this using micro bore and small bore pipework copper and plastic it was boring as hell. Later on there was your ccn1 and very very basic electrics ie proving safe isolation. But can't remember much else as I was a stoner back then.

 

[Welder]

An interesting post Chris...

Personally, these days I'd start with people & business skills.

• People skills would be talking to people. Looking them in the eye, proper listening, (often the unsaid rather than said) treating people with empathy and consideration.
• Communicating so that you don't shoot yourself in the foot and inadvertently ruin your reputation.
• The business skills bit is vital too. Knowing how to estimate time, how to charge appropriately
• Demonstrating how pricing too low kills you business as quickly as not turning up.
• How listening to your 'inner voice' will save your backside more times than you can possibly imagine.
• How being utterly honest but putting it across in a sensitive manner can both win friends AND work.

 

[chris watkins]

Maybe we should leave the use of tools & installation etc cos although I would expect some basic technique's to be taught most would be learnt & perfected thought out the site training & is mainly down to the trades people they will be working with.
Should they still be taught screwed iron ?

How about just the college theory side, what do you think should be taught as part of the course?
Is this the knowledge you would want from your training?

1. Cold & hot water systems - should this include the Water Reg's & Part G (unvented so that they have the tickets on completion) Should it include sizing pipes & storage vessels.
2. Above ground drainage systems - should this include below ground as well ? at least they should be able to ID separate systems, combined & surface water. How about grease traps, should guttering & RW systems be included ?
3. Heating systems - should they still learn about gravity systems, how about heatloss calculations manually ? Low Lost Headers & hydraulic separation? Controls - should we be teaching WC / load compensation or just limiting it to the S & Y plan & combi plus ?
4. Electrical - clearly it is such an everyday part of our work but to what extent? should they understand house wiring systems or just how to connect to a FCU ? Should they be able to understand & wire up an S plan & then fault find on it or is this just too much for them at this stage?
5. Business studies - should they know how companies are set up & run / managed? Taxed? The high end skills that Dave is after would be wonderful but not sure they could be taught at such a young age although the personal skills could be pushed more, the rest I think come with age & experience.

What have I missed?

My son is a Plumber but doesn't want to clear a blocked bog, instead passes it over to the drainage side What is the world coming to?

 

[Millsy 82]

I think yes to 1,2,3 should all be taught.

Electrics should only be basics unless you get some sort of qualifications etc at the end.

Business management not so much you don't need that to be a plumber, if you want to go self employed then they need to know it so like electrics the basics wouldn't hurt.

Plumbing is such a broad subject which is why I disagree with these courses that say they can turn you into a plumber in 8 weeks etc.

Once you finish level 3 then you can further your abilities with doing extra courses like electrics, business management etc but for level 3 concentrate on the main job.

 

[Last Plumber]

What subjects should be taught to new plumbing trainees?
The new plumbing qualification is only Level 3 what should they know at the end of the training?
It has got to cover the whole of the country both rural, towns & cities.
(& don't do the one about the best cup of tea etc please)

This is a list of headings from the City and Guilds Thirty-ish years ago.
Is it the same now, similar or has a lot been removed?
Plumbing Craft:-

Complementary Industrial Studies
Observing Safe Practices
Interpreting Drawings, Specifications and Data.
Measurement and Marking Out.
Cutting and Shaping.
Drilling
Threading
Jointing
Bending and Folding
Fixing and Installing
Testing and Commissioning
Preserving and Protecting
Maintaining, Repairing and Servicing
Sheet Weathering
Cold Water Systems
Domestic Hot Water
Hot Water Heating Systems
Above Ground Discharge pipework and Sanitation
Below Ground Drainage
Gas Supply
Electrical Systems
Complimentary Building Studies
Basic Physical Quantities, Electricity and Magnetism
Forces
Pressure
Heat
Thermal Movement
Energy
The Principles of Tool Construction and Materials Technology
Concepts in Chemistry
Applied Chemistry
Materials For Industry

Advanced Craft:-

Boosted Cold Water and Fire Fighting
Advanced Hot Water Supply
Advanced Hot Water Heating
Advanced Above Ground Discharge Pipework and Sanitation
Advanced Below Ground Drainage
Oil Supply Installation and Systems
Advanced Gas Supply Installation and Systems
Electrical Controls for Mechanical Engineering Services

 

[Last Plumber]

What subjects should be taught to new plumbing trainees?

Are you a teacher Chris or am I thinking of another member?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

yes they should chris or at least the knowledge to transition to copper

Yes also gf plastics as these can be worrisome if you’ve never touched before etc

Should touch on underground but nothing much maybe a day etc

Rainwater harvesting should be touched aswell

Yes still a fair few gravity systems about

And yes heatloss calcs long way aswell as 4 pipe systems and wc

Wiring wise keep the same wire from a fcu and plans but go more into it eg s plan plus etc And underfloor

TBH no but offer another business course that goes indept

 

[chris watkins]

That takes me back Last, what a grounding that gave you but not sure how you would find the time to fit it all in along with some of the the more modern bits like LLH's, HIU, U/F & heat pumps etc especially as they don't do the full day & extra evening on the day release any more.
Mind you I do recall time was wasted on such things as drawing a section through a stopcock & Nuralite roofing plus hours & hours of lead burning mind you I could burn upright by the time I left.

 

[chris watkins]

Are you a teacher Chris or am I thinking of another member?

Was & possible will be again, I like to keep me hand in.

 

[Last Plumber]

what a grounding that gave you

That's true and that's the point isn't it? If you skip basics, you don't always fully understand or think through things in the right way.

hours of lead burning

Yes, almost to the point you could do it in your sleep lol.

 

[Welder]

Maybe we should leave the use of tools & installation etc cos although I would expect some basic technique's to be taught most would be learnt & perfected thought out the site training & is mainly down to the trades people they will be working with.
Should they still be taught screwed iron ?

How about just the college theory side, what do you think should be taught as part of the course?
Is this the knowledge you would want from your training?

1. Cold & hot water systems - should this include the Water Reg's & Part G (unvented so that they have the tickets on completion) Should it include sizing pipes & storage vessels.
2. Above ground drainage systems - should this include below ground as well ? at least they should be able to ID separate systems, combined & surface water. How about grease traps, should guttering & RW systems be included ?
3. Heating systems - should they still learn about gravity systems, how about heatloss calculations manually ? Low Lost Headers & hydraulic separation? Controls - should we be teaching WC / load compensation or just limiting it to the S & Y plan & combi plus ?
4. Electrical - clearly it is such an everyday part of our work but to what extent? should they understand house wiring systems or just how to connect to a FCU ? Should they be able to understand & wire up an S plan & then fault find on it or is this just too much for them at this stage?
5. Business studies - should they know how companies are set up & run / managed? Taxed? The high end skills that Dave is after would be wonderful but not sure they could be taught at such a young age although the personal skills could be pushed more, the rest I think come with age & experience.

What have I missed?

My son is a Plumber but doesn't want to clear a blocked bog, instead passes it over to the drainage side What is the world coming to?

Dont blame your lad one iota Ive had septicaemia through dealing with sh1te. Not fun i can assure you

 

[Last Plumber]

Dont blame your lad one iota Ive had septicaemia through dealing with sh1te. Not fun i can assure you

That's a near death experience! or can be.
Did you cut yourself?

 

[Welder]

That's a near death experience! or can be.
Did you cut yourself?

It was 'apparently', I thought I was fine, Drs however prepared the wife for 'worst'. Like all good Yorkshireman tho, a bit o sh1te can't kill me! Had it three times now. Can assure you it's not fun.

No cut that I'm aware of. Probable just not good enough hygiene. One however was a feral cat - that's a story for a few beers... Last seen flying over neighbour's fencing (2 doors away)

 

[Last Plumber]

@2roger22

How can you disagree with a question?
Or was it a mistake?

 

[Jerry]

Hmmm
How about-

• Honest and reliable
• Turns up on time
• Willingness to learn

I have also heard to 'hire talent, train skill'

 

[chris watkins]

I was really after subject areas for the Plumbing qualification Jerry.

• Honest and reliable
• Willingness to learn
• Turns up on time

Your suggestions aren't normally taught at college, it is maybe down to you to improve your selection / interview techniques for the top two & possible your management for the bottom one.

 

[Jerry]

I was really after subject areas for the Plumbing qualification Jerry.

• Honest and reliable
• Willingness to learn
• Turns up on time

Your suggestions aren't normally taught at college, it is maybe down to you to improve your selection / interview techniques for the top two & possible your management for the bottom one.

Agreed

 

[WC1]

The one thing that can only be learnt on the job- how to communicate with customers. Can't learn it from a book, can't practice it in a classroom. Such as How to reassure a worried cust. How to calm down an angry cust. How to get the info you need to diagnose a fault e.g. open vs leading questions. How to develop a rapport. I'd say it is possibly the most important skill of any tradesperson. IMO

 

[chris watkins]

The one thing that can only be learnt on the job- how to communicate with customers. Can't learn it from a book, can't practice it in a classroom. Such as How to reassure a worried cust. How to calm down an angry cust. How to get the info you need to diagnose a fault e.g. open vs leading questions. How to develop a rapport. I'd say it is possibly the most important skill of any tradesperson. IMO

Agree but after you can walk the walk you learn to talk the talk !!
I would just say I do try to give them pointers on this but maybe it should be pushed a be more.
In your early twenties few will be able to but we can give them examples.

 

[CHRISX]

Hello All,

Good advice from Members.

On a lighter note - I copied the wording below from one of our Members some time ago - unfortunately I did not make a note of who posted it but I do agree with their comments - what do other Members think ?

HEATING ENGINEER & PLUMBER JOB DESCRIPTION FOR THE PHYSICAL DEMANDS OF OUR WORK:

The job description should contain words like: 'acrobatic contortionist with immense strength, night vision and huge brain, required to deal with every possible scenario imaginable to mankind in any given position'.

I hope that the Member who originally posted that will not mind me re-posting it without being able to attribute the wording to them by name.

Chris

 

[chris watkins]

"The new ‘Trailblazer’ Plumbing Apprenticeship overall structure is excellent it ensure that all apprentices will be working at a Level 3 standard however, an integral part of the four year programme means each candidate must select a compulsory fuel or renewable option they are; Natural Gas, Oil, Solid fuel and Solar/Heat pumps".
"This means that any apprentice or trainee that is employed just carrying out ‘Plumbing’ work and not one of the fuel or renewable options will not be able to ‘pass’ the apprenticeship due to the on-site evidence requirements".
"Up to half of our current apprentices are employed on building sites, 1st fixing risers, installing multiple pipework systems and plant rooms, installing HIU’s in new build flats, 2nd fixing commercial washroom areas etc or indeed working on maintenance contracts for schools, hospitals, office complex’s, modern apartment blocks and shopping centres etc etc".
"Why are we now deciding that anyone who performs ‘Commercial Plumbing work’ or ‘Plumbing work without Gas’ is not eligible?

Who decided that in order to be a skilled and qualified Plumber, you ‘must’ be working on gas appliances or installing solar panels"?
So asks Mr Neil Samuels at a proper training centre in South London

Most would applaud the inclusion of the various fuels and renewables within the scheme, but surely there must be some space for those that are working within non-domestic properties or not able to gain gas related site evidence?

The fear is that there will be a large downturn in Plumbing Apprenticeship registrations and subsequently this will only exasperate the acute shortage of skilled and qualified tradespeople that we are currently experiencing.

This is why I was asking what you would want to see in the new Plumbing qualification, so few company where prepared to have an input 5 years ago we have ended up with the above situation.

 

[WC1]

Another module might be "how to spot customers who aren't going to pay the bill" - essential for newbies