chris watkins
Plumbers Arms member

Triplex, I fear you may well be disappointed, if I have understood your situation correctly the bath does not have a thermostatic mixer (blending) valve installed & the property was completed in Dec 2010 (Part G changed in April 2010). As far as I am aware when the Building Reg's change a bit of leeway is always aloud by Building Control this is due to the fact that there is often little warning of what the changes are going to be & the fact that the construction of the properties may have been in progress for some length of time. It normally works on the point when planning consent was giving for the project. I think the warming of the cold water has been fully dealt with, except possibly to check un-vented installation is correct (backflow). Just as a side note, if a bleeding valve is installed under the bath it would still not function correctly unless the cold water issue is resolved because it would rely on the cold water being cool to temper down the hot.

The legal max temp for cold water (before it is classed as hot) is 25 deg C however the recommend maximum temp as laid down in BS6700 & possible building regs Part G is 20 deg C. Does that help !

Is this rad not balanced ? these rads / towel rails may not provide enough flow rate to keep the pump or the the boiler happy. The (hall) rad has the two lockshields or rather NO TRV so that the rise in temp can cause system to shut down on the room stat, heating "Inta-lock".

What if you have to use a auto by-pass to relieve a build up of pressure in the system due to, maybe TRV closing down etc ? nothing to do with the boiler. It is not always just that the boiler needs an open pathway for pump overrun / overheat.

I am starting to run now, how much start do I get Tony ?

the attached from Grundfos should help you antsals.

Hi Tony The plumbing industry along with technology never stands still, I suppose that's why we love it so. We now balance to achieve 20 deg C across F&R, don't fit balancing valves to the cylinder primary's (well I don't) due to the 25-30mins heat-up of modern cylinders & have the hot water on first then go over to any heating. The use of the new generation of circulators such as this Alpha 2 both with it's auto variable speed settings (& energy saving motor) means we can have the speed 3 only when it's needed & lower ones when not, saving a bit of money & system noise. The one thing that has not changed & won't ever is the need to understand what & why we have to do to make these systems work, just like balancing the system, the flow meters may help but you have to know what the flow rate should be in the first place.

Hi What setting have you put the Alpha 2 on, is on auto adapt ?

Wash your mouth out II.

Wash your mouth out.

Today Hasting, tomorrow the world, a Ray, well OK this time next year any road, onward & upwards. Mike will be please. Good Luck Ray. BTW is it a boy or a girl ?

That is the point gents, the skills we should be protecting are not (just) the installation one but the knowledge of how & why they should go together. Interestingly this guy was saying what they only hard solder over in Sydney (because it is less skilled that soft soldering). Soft is only used in outback. Plastic is just coming in but only two systems used both are crimped, no push fit as yet.

Employed I think. This was your 'bog' stranded plumber holding all their tickets.

Should I care ? All I have been thinking about this afternoon is why after 35 years hard sweet & tears, & with all my knowledge & skills am I struggling to make half of that !!!!!!!!

It is a difficult one I know but you do need some "off the job training" first then at least you will be helping who ever you can get work with. You can't (& shouldn't) expect a gas engineer to start from scratch & try to teach you (unless you what to pay them). Just like you have found out at college you cant learn plumbing just at a college but equally you do need to do theory & be shown properly, it is just the same with the gas.

Hi Paul & welcome It is not so much about just gaining evidence for an a portfolio, as gaining the on the job experience to be able to work with gas & to be able to tackle the CCN1 with some confidants. Can I ask what gas training have you had (Off & on the job), you will have not had any at college during your Level 2.

Hi Will I wish you luck in your search for employment within this trade, apart from trying to see the plumbing companies in person I cant suggest anything else to improve your chances. The lack of employment opertunity as an apprentice is also mirrored for fully qualified & experience plumbers & heating engineers who are having to compete with hoards of people who have completed training courses but have no or little experience. These trainees are often working either for no or very little money, desperate to gain experience & their NVQ's. I would urge you to think very carefully before continuing down this path & even more carefully before you spend any money on training. Good luck what ever you do.

The reading you should have done is Part H1 of the Building Regulation which stats that a 50mm water seal is required for shower (unless you are going to use the waterless trap) if you use mechanical devices be prepared for them to fail, then what are you going to do if it is under the shower tray.

Towel rail as by-pass will not be enough, I am guessing. If boiler runs fine when heating both hot water & heating then it is the flow rate around the heating alone, who install this ? seems they didn't really know what they were doing. Low loss header & new pump to handle the high resistant's heating. (yes but not a monsoon LOL) not a diy job I am afraid.

Do you know what all the ones in bold are ? (as well as the others) Why do you think you will be suited to both the plumbing & electrical work, what skills do you think will be required to be a good engineer in this role ? Start finding out & writing it all down.

Is it just the boiler side or will you be working across the whole range ? Do you know what their product range is ? What renewable / green products do they offer? What is the company history etc. Know thy enemy (or in this case your possible future employer). Good luck !!

I thought you were going to say you had a 30 or a 40. Sorry I edited my first post - was an auto by-pass installed when the boiler was installed (MI sate at least 20ft away). Last off do you know what the pump speed is set to (should be 3) even then it may not be enough to overcome system & boiler resistant's as it max head is less than 4.5M. Do you heat your domestic hot water off the boiler as well, if so try having both heating at the same time & see what boiler does then ??

Not enough flow rate through the boiler, What model have you got installed 18, 24,30 or 40 ? (17 rads) Do you know what size the main pipework is to & from the boiler ? Was an automatic by-pass installed when the boiler was installed ?

There are two main questions here 1. How is the hot water circulation around the rads if the pump is not switch on - Gravity or Conduction we cant see the pipework runs so can't help much more ? 2. How efficient against how much it will cost for the energy used. The thermal store system will never be as efficient a directly heated cylinder & direct electrical heat emitters. If the flat has two bedrooms along with the bathrooms & is top end spec, recommended 170 - 210 Litres stored hot water directly heated using cheap rate over night electricity, water held at 60 - 65deg C. Against 290 L thermal store which also supplies heating, as soon as any amount of water is drawn store will need to reheat using full cost electricity, water held at 75deg C. Standing losses alone would make the system more costly to run.

Best solution IMHO would have been to stick with the un-vent hot water cylinder on economy 7 & some other form of electrical heating, but suppose you are stuck with it now? What is the heating load of the flat ? If not sure can you give us an idea for the size & construction. Newark only seem to do up to a 250L are you sure it is a 290L where about's are the immersion bosses located (one right at the bottom, one middle & ? ) You need to try & use the economy 7 as much as possible & only have the others on during the winter when the heating is required.