Your views

[Derrick229]

I have put in a boiler, bog standard Valiant condensing boiler,

I have put in quite a few, all with no problem, but a customer asked me about fitting a scale inhibitor/reducer, I dont have a problem fitting them, if they ask me

BUT

I have never bother fitting them before (even when I was fitting standard combi boilers)

I always regarded them as an gimmick, I saw the insides of pipes that had them fitted and saw the scale on taps and shower heads and I never saw much difference

I have always told anyone if they want to eliminate scale to fit a proper water softener, but now I have read they can screw up condensing boilers if they dont have the right heat exchanger (never really took much notice what type they have, just as long as they work)

Has anyone else got any views on fitting them and have they seen any real benefits from them ?

(either magnetic type, clamp on type things, coils, plug in gadgets or the flow through type)

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

are we talking cold water side or heating?

 

[Derrick229]

As its a combi, it will go on the cold water main :whatchutalkingabout

That way, everything would have the scale reduced (if they really do work)

But its dont really matter where it goes, I just want anyone's views on these things

Do they work and are they worth putting in ?

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

look in there kettle or if they keep replacing dishwashers/washing machines if its furred up you are in a hard water area so it needs one,if not then your in a soft water area so no this is a really basic question your asking

 

[diamondgas]

I'd say anything that reduces the build p of restriction to flow and performance is a bonus Derrick! If you work in an areas with hard water I'd think promoting scale reducers would be a no brainer IMHO!

Scale forms where water is hot ... boilers are hot!

 

[Derrick229]

Just want anyones view on these things, irrespective of what kettles fur up or new washing machines need replacing

JUST views and these scale reducers/inhibitors

 

[Derrick229]

I'd say anything that reduces the build p of restriction to flow and performance is a bonus Derrick! If you work in an areas with hard water I'd think promoting scale reducers would be a no brainer IMHO!

Scale forms where water is hot ... boilers are hot!

Yes, promoting them is very good, but do they work ?

I can get one for a tenner, and charge her 65 quid putting it in, but why bother if they dont work

I have seen boilers that have had em fitted, never seen any difference in the kettle, the shower head still needs descaling, I havent actually seen any proof they do work, unlike a proper water softener that does

Its just YOUR views I want to read about

 

[armourer]

I think a scale reducer is a must in hard water areas, and yes they do work the problem comes in that they should be replaced every so often (6 months in some cases) and of course people dont do that.
If not changed eventually they will scale up, restrict flow and then cause problems.

Here in Staffordshire we have a big problem with scale and imho we should be fitting scale reducers and magnacleans on the heating.
Thats the ideal world but who is willing to pay for them?

Just read some of your replys , the single appliance ones on the cold mains inlet to a combi work fine to protect the boiler but of course you will still get build up in a kettle or shower head unless a whole house system is in place and imo this requires a much bigger system and the single inline ones are rubbish for that.

 

[diamondgas]

So then promote "proper water softeners"! may friend

So many manufacturers pt their reputation on the line but don't produce the goods ! If you know of one that does then you stick with them! Is the area you work in hard water?

 

[Derrick229]

I fitted the boiler in Ashford, Middlesex

Done a couple round there, I suppose it is a hard water area

I kept a bit of 22mm from the job, not that badly scaled, buit it looked the same (to me) as a bit of pipe from a house that did have a inhibitor fitted

In both caes, the kettles had scale in them and the shower heads needed cleaning

(my mate had fitted the scale inhibitor/reducer in June this year, I went round to his job as he was doing the bathroom)

 

[Derrick229]

So then promote "proper water softeners"! may friend

So many manufacturers pt their reputation on the line but don't produce the goods ! If you know of one that does then you stick with them! Is the area you work in hard water?

The type she wanted me to fit is the in-line type of thing, NOT a real water softener (quite a difference in price)

But I have read thart fitting a real softener can cause problems (in an old thread from 2009)

 

[pobsdad]

I fitted one a few months ago for myself just to see if it works (pts home brand multi appliance) as my kettle was scaling up,so I dread to think whats in my plate h.e.Since fitting,my kettle scales up just as much,but the scale doesn't seem to stick to the bottom as much,so gets washed away.Is this what's supposed to happen,or should there be no scale at all?

 

[diamondgas]

I've only worked for a year or so in an area with hard water but even then in line reducers were recommended ... I worked for BG for some time and they hated having to spend money on repairs due to system water! they pushed for inline scale reducers..

I guess the only folk to answer whether they're Worth it are the cu somers who bought or the reputable suppliers who fitted them!

Personally I'd rather try and prevent the possibility of scale than cope with the consequences

 

[Derrick229]

Ah, Now thats what I am trying to find out, hence asking for other blokes views on them, so far, not getting far

I personally think they are just a gimmick, or something to charge extra for fitting (the mark up is good)

I have looked on the internet for proof these things work, but all manufacturers say they do, but offer no proof (and some of them are really expensive)

I dont have one fitted, the scale in my kettle isnt bad, just rinse and empty, its no more than I expect from a CWM

 

[diamondgas]

I have worked in some pretty hard water area's Derrick and wold definitely recommend in-line filters that prevent the build up of scale. Once could barley lift a bog standard cylinder coz of the deposits in the base due to years of build up! Combi plate heatex are much less tolerant to the deposits and therefore filters that prevent the build up will always be of benefit!

 

[Derrick229]

DiamondGas

I dont have any problem fitting them, as long as they work, so far, no one has said they do, if I fit one, then 3 months down the line I get a call back and they show me the scale on shower heads, kettles, washing machines, where do I go from there ? (no-one has convinced me they really do work)

I expect a kettle to get scaled up, it comes straight from the CWM, it would even if a water softener was fitted (drinking softened water is not recommended)

 

[JayDee]

I totaly agree with armourer's points. I worked in Stoke for 15 years, and that is a really hard water area.

I can assure you that if you fit an electrolytic within one meter of the appliance, it will almost eliminate any scale formation within the appliance. But, further along the system, taps and shower heads etc, will still form scale deposits.

Each appliance, whether it be a combi boiler, tap, shower etc, needs to have a single appliance device within 1m.

 

[Derrick229]

I totaly agree with armourer's points. I worked in Stoke for 15 years, and that is a really hard water area.

I can assure you that if you fit an electrolytic within one meter of the appliance, it will almost eliminate any scale formation within the appliance. But, further along the system, taps and shower heads etc, will still form scale deposits.

Each appliance, whether it be a combi boiler, tap, shower etc, needs to have a single appliance device within 1m.

Okay, any manufacturers you can recommend ?

So, I fit one to the cold feed of a combi ? :redface:
Do I need to fit it to the hot tap ? (in the kitchen and the bathroom ?):redface:
The hot feed to the shower ? :redface:
The cold feed to the shower ?:redface:

 

[AWheating]

you have to also remember that the benchmark require you to identify if the water has a tds ppm of 200 or more, if it does then most manufactures require the installation of some form of protection. With ever increasing warranty's not following the manufactures instructions could see the warranty void and your customer unhappy. This is why i always measure the tds of the incomming main and record it on the benchmark.

 

[armourer]

The inline water softeners are only meant to protect one appliance if you are in a hard water area and want to protect the whole house you have to look at a more substantial softening system on the cold mains near the stop tap.
Its not a cheap option and it takes regular maintenance but it works.

To give you an example I have no softener on my house but I have an inline filter on the boiler but I still have to use a filter jug and a filter kettle.

In some areas of the country it would be a waste of time but in others it is needed otherwise it will cost in the long run.

I cannot see your argument really are you saying that all types of softener do not work and the manufacturers are making false claims?

 

[Derrick229]

So far, everyone has missed the point on this topic, I just wanted everyones view on if they work

I always use a liquid inhibitor on the heating side of any boiler (I dont know if that works, the water is always black and filthy after a year anyway, but the manufacturer always say its good for 25 years)

So I have had lots telling me wherte to put them, and how long they should be in and when they should be changed, now how about your views on if they really work?

 

[steadyon]

Have a look at this website. There are also a number of others (mostly US).

Personally I think the science behind the magnetic / electronic ones is is very suspect. I don't think they are proven to be worth the effort / expense, but if viewed as insurance against manufacturer disallowing a warranty claim, then they are probably better fitted than omitted.

CSI | Magnetic Water and Fuel Treatment: Myth, Magic, or Mainstream Science?

 

[metaldust9]

sounds like youve convinced yourself they dont work,but untill you fit a few of them and see if you get any callbacks then you,ll never no

 

[Derrick229]

steadyon

I can see the point in fitting them from an insurance point of view, but going by the link you sent, they havent proved or disproved they work,

Personally I cant see them working, what happens to anything these magnetic types catch or filter out?

The others are supposed to change the water, but no one is sure or how


REplies heree have said they should be fitted, and where, but no one has actually come out and said, YES, they do work

1 person has said they have fitted one, but still have scale in the kettle (surely if these things do work, there wouldnt be any, a kettle dont work as hard as a boiler)

I guess no one really knows if they do work, but just fit them in case they do (and you can make 50 quid on them)

 

[Derrick229]

sounds like youve convinced yourself they dont work,but untill you fit a few of them and see if you get any callbacks then you'll never know

Never fitted any, never had a call back about it, this was the first time I have been asked about them

That is the reason I came here and asked for views on them

People have said they fit them, people have told me where to fit them, people have told they have to be changed on a regular basis (on the paper work, it says a life time, what ever that means) no one has said they do work though

Even in the link, I read it, nothing is proven, and nothing has been tested since the 90's, the same principal is used on liquid fuels, but then again, nothing proven

The only thing they have said is a ion exchange water softener does work, but that is completely different from a bolt on 'gadget'

 

[AWheating]

my view is irrespective of wether they work very well or not, if the boiler manufacture requires one to be fitted if the ppm is 200 or higher then you have to fit one to avoid warranty problems.

As for wether they work, i think you should be asking the manufactures for data to back up there product if you have concerns, why dont you email a couple of manufactures and ask them to come and post in this thread? what answer do you think an installer can give you apart from his/hers own limited views. As an installer of a product you can only go on your own experiences. I have worked for local authorites who spend thousands of pounds a year on them, so somebody thinks they work and are worth the money. As an installer if you fit them and do not get call backs you are likely to believe they work well.

 

[Derrick229]

I think the concensus is, you fit them wether they work or not, havent seen any manufacturer that asks for them to be fitted, but they do insist an inhibitor is in the system, I use MB1

I still have never fitted one, I honestly dont think they work, I have seen pipework where they have been fitted, and there is no difference in a system that doesnt have them fitted

What happens to any debris these things are supposed to remove ?

I can see that a softener working, it removes the stuff before it gets in the system, but these other things keep it in the system

I did ask for personal views about these

Does ANYONE think they work ? (irespective if any authority, manufacturer insists they be fitted)

Can ANYONE prove they work, by seeing reduced scale buildup ?

Everyone seems to be dancing around without giving a definate answer

 

[AWheating]

what definate answer do you think you can get? do you think that installer's do regular returns to check if its working? If somebody says that they alwasy fit them and they never get any problems in the future then what else can they say to prove it does work?

most boiler manufactures require some form of protection if the ppm is 200+, this is the guidelines as required by the benchmark scheme that almost all manufactures are signed up to. speak to the manufactures and they will give advise on what they want.

 

[Derrick229]

Still dancing,
A personal view, thats all, seems very hard for anyone to give a personal view

I really dont think I will get a personal view here, no one will put their name down and say YES they do work or NO they dont

Of course any manufacturer will say they work, he sells the dam things, can he prove they work, I doubt it

People here fit them,or I assume they do, now either you fit them because they work or you fit them because a manufacturer says you have to (havent seen that on any boiler yet) but still like a PERSONAL view about them

Has anyone seen any significent reduction in scale ?

 

[AWheating]

my personal view is they work well.

 

[Derrick229]

my personal view is they work well.

So you have seen significent reduction in scale ?

WHERE ?

Have you made any comparisons ?

 

[AWheating]

electric shower, replaced every two years without, lasted 4 years to date. My mothers kettles last longer since i have fitted one under her sink.

personal opinion proves nothing tho, as some people think ideal boilers are good.... we all have our own view's based on little or no evidence of many things. I dont see how somebody's personal view can prove anything?

 

[Derrick229]

personal views dont prove anything I know, but I didnt want anyone to prove anything, just a personal view, I have yours, thanks

As for preference for a boiler, I fit whatever works for the customer, if they have a preference, I fit that, after that, whatever fits the budget

 

[armourer]

My personal view is that they do work. I base this on the fact that the few I have removed have been caked up internally so they are catching something?

 

[Derrick229]

My personal view is that they do work. I base this on the fact that the few I have removed have been caked up internally so they are catching something?

Thats 2 that recommend the fitting of them and 1 who hasnt seen any difference

Thanks