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Discuss Warmflow Oil Boiler with Burner CH & Riello Burner with NO drain cock in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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H

hussy

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:eek:
Hi y'all.
:p
( I like the choice of smilies:D)
I need to drain down my CH system, it is full of sludge, and I wish to fit on new wheelhead/lockshield valves to 4 rads downstairs and 3 TRV valves to 3 rads in the bedrooms.
I was intending to flush out the system, remove rads and hose then attach everything and flush with cleaner, rinse and then inhibitor.
Problem - there is no drain cock/valve anywhere. Checked boiler house, rad valves etc.
There is a vent pipe in loft with cold water tank and F&E header tank so I presumed a conventional open vented system.
My boiler is this type WARMFLOW CENTRAL HEATING OIL BOILER & RIELLO BURNER - Castlereagh - Belfast - Heating, Fire Places, & Fire Surrounds for Sale - 55541394
I think it is system pressure boiler but there is no pressure dial to read. I have no ideas now how to drain down the system and cautious about the refill.
Anyone got ideas??

That title is a bit long and overdue........
what I meant was
Warmflow oil burner with riello Burner.
I have no drain valve/cock is the main issue.

I have no drain valve/cock on my CH. What do I do? Is it ok to drain off from a rad valve on ground level, then install a drain valve (by the way is there a better valve to install for easier drain down)

should all central heating systems include a drain valve/cock, no matter if system is open vented or sealed?

;) boo
 
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So definately no drain cocks, damn poor state of affairs, tie up ball cock or isolate F&E it in the loft close off one lower rad, drain that, pick one that's not above the lightest carpet, can get wet if you rush it. Then drain off the two rad tails by opening the valves into suitable containers, remember the bleed valve will help release pressure/speed up flow and check valvesare turned off.

You can get LSVs with drain off cocks, not looked at the link for your boiler but it'll not be a pressured system with having F&E tank. While everything is dry stick a couple of drain cocks somewhere useful.
 
steve
thankyou for your reply, I figured the method of draining down when there is no drain cock, but thanks for your advice. Yes it very weird that there is no drain cock/valve! It is my young mums' house (who recently passed) I know she did have works done in her bathroom including a new towel radiator. So I am confused as to why no such drain valve was added then.
I have looked in all the obvious places, but also outside, near the doors, boiler house etc, nothing in sight.
Then I got suspicious that perhaps this is a sealed system - but surely even if it was there would be a drain cock/valve.
I took some pictures and will get them loaded up tomorrow - if you can have a look.
The CH is having problems, rads are cool downstairs (at bottom of rads) which suggests to me sludge build up, I think the pump is ok.
Please come back tomorrow evening or sometime to view images if possible - no wait enjoy your saturday too - then drop by when you can
Cheers Steve:cool:;) lovin these smilies
 
From memory there is a drain cock valve but it's well hidden within the insulation material. If you look in your boiler manual it will be indicated (bottom left I think). Alternatively you can phone Warmflow. Last problem I had they were particularly unhelpful but hopefully this won't be much of an issue for them.
 
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My pictures above.
I included a pic of the hotpress (hot water tank, first floor), is this the heat exchanger?
Went to my mums' house yesterday, triple checked everywhere for drain valve -no success.
From the pics can anyone confirm that it is an open vented conventional system and not seealed.
I think the boiler is a Pressure Jet ( atomizing burner) so on the refill do I need to monitor the pressure to max 1.5 bar if it is a sealed system. But there is no filling loop or pressure dial.
Should the boiler have an insulating jacket? I saw one of mums' neighbours did , except their boiler was smaller.
From your reckoning, this is a gravity fed system too?
By the way, notice my pump is inverted, is the pump installed on the return or flow, this looks like the return as pipe enters boiler at bottom.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

hi dontknowitall
there is no insulating jacket around my boiler, that boiler would get too hot to ever have a jacket I think - sure I am right. The unit is completely welded sealed with only a top plate to access where the baffle plates are in the boiler.
I am going to get the boiler serviced by a local OFTEC plumber, I wanted to drain/clean/install x3 TRV and refill with inhibitor - then get boiler serviced.
We have my mums' house for sale but I think it may be rented, so I wanted to have it all maintained so that my sisters would have no problems will I am back in living in London.
 
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Sorry - thought it was a combi boiler!!

The way to drain this would be to stop water entering the F&E cistern (small water tank) (using that tap in the centre of the left hand photo).

Once turned press the ball valve down to make sure no more water enters the cistern.

Then find a drain cock on the heating circuit. If there is no drain cock, then you have to break into the heating somehow, using some ingenuity.

Best thing to do is locate a radiator near a door, remove the radiator and drain via one of its valves by attaching some hosepipe to a small piece of 15mm pipe. To do this it's probably best to visit your local plumbing merchant and tell them what you're trying to do and they'll sell you a few pieces.

Alternatively, get a plumber in and he should be able to start the drainage of the system within an hour and leave you to replace the other items.

And don't forget to fit a drain valve (replace a lockshield valve with one fitted with an integral drain cock) before you fill the system again!
 
hello again, yes that is ok I know how to drain down the system if there is no drain valve - and indeed install one on the LSV.
I guess what I was more worried about was if this was a sealed system, and how would I refill to pressure bar 1.5 max.
That why I enclosed images as with F&E in loft would suggest it is not a sealed system, but lack of drain cock, and the fact that it is a pressurised and not only gravity fed system led me to be suspicious that perhaps it is a sealed system.
I am competent to do most wet plumbing jobs, except boiler and any gas maintenance.
I think it is just the system is so old, and with no drain cock threw me off.

kinda still confused though
 
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Your not compitant at all if you can't tell what the system is from looking get a plumber to do it
You probably have sludge ad the heating has been pumping over that why you got the hep on the vent to increase resistance
 
yes I see your point, but there again is this not what the forum is for to find out if some jobs require a plumber and some don't.

You say that the system is pumping over, hence why the hemp on the vent pipe to create resistance. I understand that, but does that mean that my pump is positioned in the wrong place. I understand that pumping over corrodes the system too. I guess what I should have said in being competent was, installing bathrooms, radiators etc. not done any of this in a while, so apologies.
I know it is an open vented system, just the old boiler burner and no drain cock spooked me into self doubt. I am reading much and thankyou for your help.
I think i will now get a plumber, but can anyone let me know if my pump location may need changed now too. To be honest too, I am not trying to save money by being here on the forum, I do usually try to learn much on diy and I am a competent and practical person, I think too since it is my mums, house perhaps (though too late) trying to make her proud.
 
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Hussy do you aspire to do this shyt for a living or are you just having a go at it?
What is your idea that the forum is for? To pick the brains of those who know and learn something or save yourself a few quid?
If you are doing this as a "career" (i always just thought it was just a job) you have to learn systems. There are dozens of ways to pipe a system that will not be shown in any book or given in any lessons but are all put into practice. Think about it and if necessary draw it out then think. We all had to learn so i and many others don't mind giving advice if you need it.
Gary doesn't know if it is pumping over although the water level in the FE tank has been rising but he is right in saying you don't know your rse from your elbow on this. I am curious too though about what the hep loop is from? as that has been added at some point.
Back to the start.
You want to change some rad valves and cant find a drain off.
You ask if the system is sealed on the same post as a picture of a F&E tank and should the boiler have a jacket.
You really have to use your head a bit. How can it be sealed with an open vent? The boiler (you may not have known this) is a utility (basic) model for siting in an outhouse or utility room where it does not need a casing.
Think about things a bit. Drain it from ANY where that is convenient. As said before remove a rad and drain it from there or as the boiler is in an outhouse just split a nut and let it run and before you refill put a drain valve in at some convenient place.
Personally i think, unless you are a first year apprentice doing your mother a good turn although I am competent to do most wet plumbing jobs would suggest otherwise, you are a fkn halfwit who should not be let loose on any unsuspecting unfortunate person
 
that's a bit strong and yes I did think that the forum was for picking brains to learn, out of keen interest, but also to gain some knowledge prior to getting a Pro in if required.
no I am not an apprentice plumber and no I do not do jobs on anyone's property but my own, (as my mum has died, the house is part mine) rather I am genuinely interested, trying to help sort a problem, but wise not to tackle a job when a trained pro is required and give credit where credit is due.
But to call me a fcking half wit or anything else is a uncalled for. But hey whatever rocks your boat, forums are always the same with much of the same boasting and bashing, I suppose next you will say I have no sense of humour either eh?
On the plus side, some of what you say is dead on, I do need to follow the pipes, make drawings and study them - why - because I am keen to understand CH system of my own property.
Thanks too for the tip of the hep 20 barrier pipe that it is a new installation.
I will trace the installation of this pipe.
I guess the boiler unit really confused me as I have not seen a boiler burner in an outhouse like this before. The system I understood to be open vented system due to what is in the loft. Then I studied diagrams of CH systems and one diagram of a sealed system had a F&E tank in the loft, that confused me too.
I was also confused as to why no drain valve had ever been installed especially since works had been done less than one year ago.
I have installed x3 new toilets/bathrooms in my home - no problems, this is what I meant by the statement I am ok at wet plumbing works. But CH systems I do find confusing partly because plumbers use so many variables during installation.
Where can you get decent reading material to learn how CH systems work and plumbing, other than the crap diy books in stores. For a keen leaner, can anyone suggest a great book to read on this.
Besides all of this I am an artist and use plumbing in my work installations, now I guess I should be prepared for a full onslaught of name calling, but that would make me laugh, part and parcel of the job.
 
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So it is a bit clearer now. You don't do it for a living and are a DIYer trying to save a few quid so apologies for saying you were a fkn halfwit (which would still stand if you did this for a living). Saying you are competent implies that you have some training or qualification.
So what you want to do is drain the system add a couple of trv's and refill adding inhibitor.
The system looks professionally done (possibly in the late 70's early 80's) so it us unlikely there is no drain valve. It could be a fitted below the floor assuming it is timber floors. Look all around the outside of the house for a pipe sticking out just below floor level. If you see a 1/2" pipe then that will possibly be it and you just need to find the valve. It will not be far from there. It could be under a radiator but there will be a loose board.
If you can't find anything at all then pick a small radiator near a door, close the valves and drain it and remove. Then drain the system from there and when drained change the lockshield valve for a drain valve. Draining this way will not drain the boiler as the pipes rise from there. To drain the boiler you would have to loosen a nut and let it run out.
The pump is fitted to the return. The position of the head does not relate to the way it is pumping as this can be turned. There is an arrow on the side showing the direction of flow.

Here is a good plumbing book but maybe a bit too much in depth for what you need
[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plumbing-R-D-Treloar-3rd-Installations/dp/1405139625/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278243437&sr=1-9"]Plumbing R.D. Treloar 3rd edition: Heating and Gas Installations: Amazon.co.uk: Roy Treloar: Books[/ame]

For a bit more reading try these old books, all free and interesting.
the modern plumber and - search (Open Library)
They may be old but a lot of the stuff is still relevant. There is even one that may help your artwork.
Good luck ;)
 
Tamz is right treloar is a good reference book
Tamz i know it was pumping over as why would someome add hep to a vent when everything else in copper if not to stop it pumping over I bet when he drains down the water is black
And I'm sure warmflow have a doc on there boilers factory fitted
 
The water level has certainly been rising at some point but the hep loop is coming from something else as the original is still there? Without seeing it, it is hard to tell but i would recon it needs a flush out anyway.
I'm sure the warmflow utility has a spare tapping for a doc too but whether they used it is another thing.
 
Tamz thete is 2 vents the 22mm in copper will be comeing from a back boiler and the 15mm hep will be off heating side
 
I should remember that in here most of you are pro workmen/women, and it is naive of me to say competent - (forgetting where I am )

The last few replies are great help, I have spent today learning CH system diagrams and info. Thanks for the tips on the books, I use plumbing and electrics in my work(separately), with furniture, domestic appliances and such but wishing to expand my understanding on this.

I understand the level marks shown in the F&E tank and is conclusive to 'pumping-over' condition. I will run the heating and see amount of water that runs out of the vent pipe. I will also check the ball cock for to see if it holds water.
i checked all the places you mentioned in search of a drain valve but no luck, it is a small 3 bed semi and ground floors are concrete. So I will drain as you say.
I hope I have no blockage in the cold feed and it is removable sludge sludge - the water inside the rads is black.
The installation of the hep 20 barrier pipe is odd.

what does off heating side mean?
 
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No mate the hep is not that odd it was put in to couse resistance against the pumping over issue so if it worked thete will be no pumping over now if there is a back boiler and not used get it disconected and get your plumber to make in to a sealed system it will be far better in long run
Hope we have helped you see this is not a DIY job
 
you most certainly did guys, I have a heating engineer coming this week. I understand to the increase in resistance too.
been good to talk it over, and will read the book. cheers
 
Remove some of the insulation on the boiler doc should be to the bottom right if I remember
If not just shut down the feed to the header tank in the roof space.
Then drain the system from the any valve on the ground floor.. But I think you will find what you are looking for on the boiler..
be interested to know how you get along .. good luck mate
 
Depends on who installed the boiler in the first place. Warmflow's traditionally come with four 1" connection points, 1 top and 1 bottom each side.

Looking how close yourboiler is to the wall i would doubt a drain cock has been installed. But then she is an old girl (date stamped 1992), she's a 50/70 and she definately needs the fire cement replaced, not only that you've no fire valve.

whereabouts in NI is this?
 
Take not notice of Tamz sounds like he is having a bad week,, ask any qestions you like thats what it all about good luck with it mate
 
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