Vaillant Plus 831 v Ideal Vogue Logic Plus 40KW v Worcester Si Compact 30 KW

[naut2k0]

Hi All,

I just wrote a long post and then suddenly lost it when it came up to submit it .. :disappointed:

So here goes again, but a lite version incase it happens again and I can add some more info mid way :wink5:

I've had several people come and look at my current boiler and I am looking to get a new one, including a powerflush prior to a new kitchen being fitted.

House is a 1930s End of terrace property wih 7 rads and 1 towel rad. Currently boiler is an ancient 20 yr Potterton.

Flowrate of house is 20l/min near the stopcock tested at the external hose pipe and 9.5l/min at the kitchen sink.

I have been suggested by different fitters as follows:

1) British Gas - Worcester Si Compant 30 KW - 12.3l/min (10 year warranty as long as I go with Homeserve 200) - £4.1k + (£15-18per month after year 1)
2) Independent - Vaillant Plus 831 24KW - 12.7l/min (7yr warranty) - £3.5k
3) Independent - Ideal Vogue Logic Plus 40 KW - 16.4l/min - £3.7k - (5yr warranty)

Questions I have are:

1)flowrate, eventhough my cold water flow is 20l/min, what realistically would my flowrate be for HW and CH and should I think about having the higher flowrate of the Ideal?
2)warranty, because I will be having a power flush, does the varying warranty matter?
3)boiler, I know each engineer has a preference and pretty much the models above were suggested are these all on par, do people have a preference?
4)loft conversion, looking at future proofing, will these be okay if an en suite is to be added at a later date?

I think that's it for now :wink5:

Thanks in advance! I can provide more info if necessary!

Naut

 

[tamz]

1. Flow rate is determined by the tap. Your sink tap can pass 9.5l/m (assuming whoever tested it turned it on full blast), your basin tap will never run that amount, a shower valve will on average pass 12-15l/m mixed (both hot and cold) so the bath tap is the only thing that can take the full flow rate of any of the boilers (it will look disappointing).
2. Warranty, Bg really only offer you a one year warranty (they strip the Worcs warranty off the boilers to buy them cheaper) so in reality your 10 year guarantee will cost you 9 x £180 = £1620 (not allowing for inflation)
Vaillant quote is by an approved installer, that won't cost you nothing except an annual service (warranty void if not done), Vogue also covered the same way.
3. They are all decent boilers and like buying a car, everyone likes different brands for different things.
4. Loft conversion with another bathroom. This is the one that matters. You will then have different HW requirements and your need is for simultaneous use of HW. Of the above mentioned boiler only the Ideal would be suitable to your requirements and even that is a bit low for 2 showers at the same time. Combi's are not designed for simultaneous draw offs but they will work in a limited capacity.

Whichever you choose to go with make sure you fit a system filter like a TF1 or a Magnaclean to protect the boiler as no new boilers like sludge and powerflushing never removes it all even if you did it 10 times (another misconception).

 

[Reg Man]

Another great reply from Tamz. I'm in such a good mood today and I don't know why.

 

[jam1979]

informative as ever tamz u do no ur stuff pal

 

[naut2k0]

Hi Tamz,

Thanks for that information. In terms of the KW per boiler, the Ideal is obviously higher - am I right in assuming that the Ideal will cost more to run, or is it actually heating the water quicker?

If we don't get a loft conversion anytime soon (lets say within 5years) will the Ideal be less efficient? The water pressure was checked and is 4bar.

I had someone suggest to me that the 837 Vaillant would be inefficent, hence the recommendation for the 831.

Thanks
Naut

 

[doitmyself]

Flowrate of house is 20l/min near the stopcock tested at the external hose pipe and 9.5l/min at the kitchen sink.

The flow rate at the sink if often lower, particularly if you have a mixer tap fed by small diameter pipes.

Did you check how much the flow reduced at the external tap when the sink tap was turned on?

 

[naut2k0]

The flow rate at the sink if often lower, particularly if you have a mixer tap fed by small diameter pipes.

Did you check how much the flow reduced at the external tap when the sink tap was turned on?

I'll check and let you know although it will be a visible check rather than with a meter.

One thing I wanted to ask, one of the quotes includes a 10% profit added to the bill? Can someone explain this?

Thanks!

 

[tamz]

Hi Tamz,

Thanks for that information. In terms of the KW per boiler, the Ideal is obviously higher - am I right in assuming that the Ideal will cost more to run, or is it actually heating the water quicker?

If we don't get a loft conversion anytime soon (lets say within 5years) will the Ideal be less efficient? The water pressure was checked and is 4bar.

I had someone suggest to me that the 837 Vaillant would be inefficent, hence the recommendation for the 831.

Thanks
Naut

All of the boilers will have much the same running costs on central heating but the ideal may (but not necessarily) be higher on the hot water as it is capable of higher flow rates if you use it to capacity. Modern boilers do what is called modulating. This means they adjust the gas consumption themselves to suit the demand.

All being equal if you run a shower at 12 litres / min or any other low flow rate tap each boiler will use much the same gas as the boilers will adjust the flame to suit the demand. Run a bath the way most people do by turning the tap on full and the ideal will use more gas as it can heat the water at a faster flow rate. The other 2 will restrict the flow to what they can heat.

Central heating wise they will all adjust themselves (i'll keep this in simple terms and try not to get too technical) but as the system comes up to temperature they may all short cycle (ie heat up then turn off and on and off and on) as the system does not require the lowest amount of heat the boiler is capable of giving out. Short cycling costs you money.
For central heating, the ideal can give out (modulate) between 5.7 - 32kw of heat adjusting itself to suit the demand.
The worcs 30 si modulates between 7 - 24kw and the Vaillant between 5.2 and 24.2kw

If you are definately going ahead with an extra bathroom in the future go with a bigger boiler (all the manu's make big boilers)

Btw an 837 modulates between 6.4 - 28.6kw so hardly inefficient compared to any other boiler.

another btw
Profit is not a dirty word. Without profit no one would be in business. Whoever put that in the quote has a lot to learn but basically i suspect it means an uplift on materials to cover future costs which to you means if it breaks down you phone him and he will attend and deal with it.
If on the other hand you look up the internet and say i can buy that boiler for £800 and you buy it. If/when it breaks down, personally it is your problem not mine, you bought it, deal with it.

 

[naut2k0]

Hey all ..

My kitchen has been removed and floor leveled .... the guys are working on the pipework now ( I can upload pics later) if people are interested ..

Had one question though - what's the major differences between the Ideal Vogue 40KW and the Ideal Logic+ 30KW Combis?

My plumber is trying to change the agreement ....!

 

[Scott_D]

The Logic plus has a 5 year warranty
The vogue has a 7 year warranty

The vogue 40 has a higher hot water output than the logic plus 30

 

[Roger Welton]

Vouge has a stainless heat exchanger and the logic a aluminium

 

[BurstPipe]

Logic do the logic plus 35kw too.
5 year warranty as standard. But can be extended to 7 years for £105.

 

[vern]

WB CDI job done stop messing with toys!

 

[novicegas]

Vaillant 831 with 470f controls, get a decent private engineer not bg.

 

[naut2k0]

Re: UPDATED with pics - Ideal Vogue Logic Plus 40KW

Hi All,

Turns out that while I was at work on Friday our engineer fitted an Ideal + 30KW not the Ideal Vogue 40KW as agreed so he is back tomorrow to fit the new one (as long as it's in stock) and take out the old one!!

Just wanted to share some photos of the work done thus far ..... We're getting a new kitchen so had everything stripped, a sparky came an put in some new electrics, the floor has been leveled and new pipework put in place. We're having spotlights in the kitchen too so the old wooden ceiling was taken down and we came across some damagaed ceiling! That's been removed as it appears the previous owner had a leak!

Its given me a chance to see the pipework for the bathroom as well as a MAJOR error by the previous occupant - he has cut into the main joist for the shower (See pic below) -the guys we have are going to properly support that but it's not good!

Now thinking about getting the bathroom done!



new boiler pipework


top of boiler


corner below boiler (does this look like it needs a proper reskim?)


old pipework with new pipework (are these new fittings okay?)


The problem! The joist has been cut ... and its more than it should be !!


Some pipework looking up at the ceiling - should I take the opportunity to change this now ... OR when the bathroom is done? Doesn't look great!

Comment appreciated thanks! :sunny:

 

[Leo21]

On another note, how big is the gas pipe?
It needs to be at least 28mm or 1 inch at the meter, and nearly all the way to the boiler for a 40kw output.
There's no point having a 40kw if there's not enough gas at the boiler.
In the pictures it's only 15mm! Which is ok for the last few feet.

 

[naut2k0]

The plumber popped round today to collect some tools for a job today and he mentioned that some of the pipework will change .. one of them is 28mm feed to the boiler.

One thing I was curious to know is that the mains water goes from 28mm to 15mm - is this normal for all boilers - seems that straight away you restrict the water flowrate by this - I guess unless they are industrial sized boilers they can't cope with a higih flowrate.

Naut

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

15mm cold and hot at the boiler is normal, dont worry

 

[Scott_D]

How did you know they were planning to fit the wrong boiler?
They then fitted it and agreed to change it?
Sounds like an expensive mistake to make

 

[naut2k0]

I didn't know that they were planning to fit the wrong boiler. I expected to come home and see the Ideal Vogue and when I didn't see it, I checked back my notes to and from the engineer where we agreed that it was infact the wrong boiler. I think he may have got his notes confused?

He admits it's his fault and will have to pick up the additional cost, and as the previous boiler he put in was not commissed I am sure he can use it at a later date ....

 

[vern]

My baby boy could do neater pipework, did he have no clips????awful

 

[Rickster123]

Why don't you treat him to a heat mat. It will change his life!

 

[Leo21]

Why don't you treat him to a heat mat. It will change his life!

A what?

 

[Rickster123]

A what?

You northerners use speedfit so it doesn't apply!

 

[naut2k0]

My baby boy could do neater pipework, did he have no clips????awful

Well to be honest its someone who works with him that did the pipe work. There are clips - just not around the boiler ... I'll bring that up when I see them tomorrow ...

I presume with the burns marks on the wall are because I will have it covered up and the kitchen is getting a slight reskim in some areas ...

BUT what's the kindest most polite way to raise this .....

 

[Leo21]

You northerners use speedfit so it doesn't apply!

Hep20, speed fit is to rough even for me.

 

[Ermintrude]

Your fitter is rough! The flue retaing clip isn't on correctly! The black stud in the Center should project through the Center of the white horse shoe! If you can dislodge the horseshoe easily with your hand you are should switch off the appliance and wait for your fitter to fix it.

Is behind the white rubber against the wall filled with cement or plaster?

Ideal give 7 years with logic to accredited installers.

I would rather a logic as vogue not proven and has already had a few hardware updates.... No one wants a duo tec 2!

 

[naut2k0]

Your fitter is rough! The flue retaing clip isn't on correctly! The black stud in the Center should project through the Center of the white horse shoe! If you can dislodge the horseshoe easily with your hand you are should switch off the appliance and wait for your fitter to fix it.

Is behind the white rubber against the wall filled with cement or plaster?

Ideal give 7 years with logic to accredited installers.

I would rather a logic as vogue not proven and has already had a few hardware updates.... No one wants a duo tec 2!

Its plaster then brick work! You were right about the flue retaining clip - it was on, but could easily be removed. I've noticed that it's not straight !!!

Well ... I've already agreed the Vogue ... so fingers crossed its okay .... these hardware updates .... do they have to be done by a qualified fitter, or is that something I can do?

 

[dancinplumba]

There appears to be a check valve only on the ch return filling loop point. Not complying with water regs

 

[naut2k0]

There appears to be a check valve only on the ch return filling loop point. Not complying with water regs

Just to say that they have't finished commissioning the boiler anyway so perhaps this was to be added later? Can you be more specific where this valve should be as I guess they should add one for the new boiler? I'm a novice after all!

Thanks!

 

[Ermintrude]

Check valve is built into the filling loop assembly as supplied by ideal and meets all water regs.

Vogue updates either done in factory or by ideal once registered. Free of charge!

Get Flue clip sorted and turn boiler off until its safe!

It's illegal to leave un commissioned gas appliance connected to gas supply!

 

[naut2k0]

Hey Zebedy, boiler was off and unconnected. The sparky is doing all the electrics now.

So he has found an Ideal Vogue (which was ruddy hard) as they seem in hard demand and Ideal don't like to ship them out via courier as they are getting damaged. It arrives tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are some pics from behind the boiler showing the bracket and the flue (I guess the same flue will work on the Vogue) and the pipework too.

 

[Ermintrude]

Yeh vogue and logic same flue system. Pipe work same at bottom I think.

The daylight coming through behind the bracket is a bit of a problem though. Wall should be made good inside and out. Not permitted to have a vent or penetration within 300mm of a flue.

Get the holes filled then get your self a free gas safe inspection because your fitter is a !!!!

 

[Ermintrude]

Never swapped logic + for a vogue but think vogue is longer is taller from top to bottom. And gas might be 22mm from memory?

 

[Scott_D]

Let's hope the gas supply isn't live back to the meter