Self cleaning drain smell unblocking

[cluelessDIYguy]

Is it a proper water trap or a mechanical trap eg silicon

View attachment 43971
As if it’s the silicon type hair / other stuff could be keeping the joint / silicon open so smells are coming through

There isn’t a trap on the Upstairs shower that I can see, looks to be waste straight into pipework. Attached a pic to this post. The inline trap mentioned earlier was a suggestion from a friend, I don’t actually have one fitted.

I just had a shower and noticed the smell was there even when the water was running.

My downstairs bathroom as of today is now also smelling, very similar smell to upstairs...
Both the sink and bath in the downstairs room have proper Traps. There’s a toilet/sink/bath in this downstairs room. If I dump the water from the sink in the downstairs bathroom water will gurgle up through the drain into the adjacent bath. Would a siphon trap potentially fix the smell in this room? The bath looks to have a low profile trap and sink a regular p trap.
I’m struggling to understand why the downstairs room could also smell if the units in there all have traps (unless the traps aren’t holding water)? I’ve dumped water down the bath and sink but it still smells rotten.

 

[Roy_66]

There isn’t a trap on the Upstairs shower that I can see, looks to be waste straight into pipework. Attached a pic to this post. The inline trap mentioned earlier was a suggestion from a friend, I don’t actually have one fitted.

I just had a shower and noticed the smell was there even when the water was running.

My downstairs bathroom as of today is now also smelling, very similar smell to upstairs...
Both the sink and bath in the downstairs room have proper Traps. There’s a toilet/sink/bath in this downstairs room. If I dump the water from the sink in the downstairs bathroom water will gurgle up through the drain into the adjacent bath. Would a siphon trap potentially fix the smell in this room? The bath looks to have a low profile trap and sink a regular p trap.
I’m struggling to understand why the downstairs room could also smell if the units in there all have traps (unless the traps aren’t holding water)? I’ve dumped water down the bath and sink but it still smells rotten.

Just s stupid question first: Is the ventilation at the top of the soil stack working ok? And where is it, and if internal is the valve working ok?

I'm thinking worth you getting a Pro in to look at all your waste plumbing.

Just one dumb thought. Could you route the shower waste downstairs a separate route via a trap in a downstairs cupboard where you can periodically undo put a bucket under and pour some bleach down from upstairs.

Other silly question is are you sure the shower waste has no built in trap. It just can't be acceptable not to have one. There are lots of flush trays these days so solutions are avail.

Perhaps for a test for the smells, gaffer tape over he shower waste, open the windows for an hour then shut them, and then see following morning if smells returned around the house.

Is your soil stack internally boxed in or can you a access?

Cheers,

Roy

 

[Ben-gee]

The waste is a trap, it is the vortex type which are a bit like a snail whirl, wirquin’s is “twisto”.
They’re supposed to spin the water around fast into a funnel like a tornado, and this then whizzes everything away - so it “self cleans”.

The are supplied with Mira flight trays and if it’s direct to floor I bin them as I don’t believe in magic. I use a top access trap so hair can be removed, the twisto is difficult to clear - wet vac and bits of wire kind of do it.

However in your case it sounds to me as if the drains may be blocked - have you tried lifting a manhole?

If it were me, as you have the ceiling down I would change that to a top access trap and the patch ceiling- all maintenance can be done from above.

Also need to re silicone if you can see light !

 

[Ric2013]

Just s stupid question first: Is the ventilation at the top of the soil stack working ok? And where is it, and if internal is the valve working ok?

I'm thinking worth you getting a Pro in to look at all your waste plumbing.

Just one dumb thought. Could you route the shower waste downstairs a separate route via a trap in a downstairs cupboard where you can periodically undo put a bucket under and pour some bleach down from upstairs.

Other silly question is are you sure the shower waste has no built in trap. It just can't be acceptable not to have one. There are lots of flush trays these days so solutions are avail.

Perhaps for a test for the smells, gaffer tape over he shower waste, open the windows for an hour then shut them, and then see following morning if smells returned around the house.

Is your soil stack internally boxed in or can you a access?

Cheers,

Roy

Agree with all the above, except the 'dumb thought' paragraph. Whatever my be in the pipework beyond the trap, the trap should not allow these smells to pass back into the room.

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

Just s stupid question first: Is the ventilation at the top of the soil stack working ok? And where is it, and if internal is the valve working ok?

I'm thinking worth you getting a Pro in to look at all your waste plumbing.

Just one dumb thought. Could you route the shower waste downstairs a separate route via a trap in a downstairs cupboard where you can periodically undo put a bucket under and pour some bleach down from upstairs.

Other silly question is are you sure the shower waste has no built in trap. It just can't be acceptable not to have one. There are lots of flush trays these days so solutions are avail.

Perhaps for a test for the smells, gaffer tape over he shower waste, open the windows for an hour then shut them, and then see following morning if smells returned around the house.

Is your soil stack internally boxed in or can you a access?

Cheers,

Roy

I stuck my fingers in the left of this picture and was able to splash about in water suggesting it acts as a trap also (I think?).

Re the soil stack, I have no idea, I have two vents that poke through the tiles in different areas of the house, I would assume one of these is the soil stack (or both?).

The house is shaped like a T, one length only has a ground floor (bathroom), the other length has a ground and 1st floor. Shower room is on the 1st floor in a dormer.

One of the vents I see protruding are above the kitchen (ground floor), I can see a red/brown plastic line running through my loft connecting to it.

The other is above the dormer (1st floor) which contains the upstairs shower room. The house is shaped like a T and there’s no loft in the upper floor where the shower room is at.

Is there an easy way to tell if they’re operating as they should be?

Thanks
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The waste is a trap, it is the vortex type which are a bit like a snail whirl, wirquin’s is “twisto”.
They’re supposed to spin the water around fast into a funnel like a tornado, and this then whizzes everything away - so it “self cleans”.

The are supplied with Mira flight trays and if it’s direct to floor I bin them as I don’t believe in magic. I use a top access trap so hair can be removed, the twisto is difficult to clear - wet vac and bits of wire kind of do it.

However in your case it sounds to me as if the drains may be blocked - have you tried lifting a manhole?

If it were me, as you have the ceiling down I would change that to a top access trap and the patch ceiling- all maintenance can be done from above.

Also need to re silicone if you can see light !

Believe it or not, I had a top access trap before installed by another plumber as a fix.

When the shower room was brand new it started having issues after a few months, I hastily blamed the waste and we got another plumber out to rectify it by swapping it to a top access one. I’ve checked through my photos in my phone and this was the one which flooded the house. It was the run off being angled back to the waste which was the issue more than the waste used. It was when it flooded I removed the plasterboard myself and couldn’t believe the amount of unecessary elbow joints the plumber had installed, then I checked the level too and saw it was running the wrong direction - so got another plumber out to (re)fit the vortex type waste and correct the level.

My other half hated the top access one the plumber installed as it protruded from the tray with a circular pull out (instead of being flush) where the tray has a square recess. Is there any recommendations of a top access one which would allow me to refit the square drain cover so it’s flush with the tray? I’ve included a pic of the current waste with the grille removed.

If there’s any pointers/techniques you can give me for the wet vac and wire I’m all ears! I have a wet vac and a variety of drain snakes/augers to hand.
Would just love to actually get it done from the top. The wastes been great for a year and a half, drains quickly and every time my other half showers it catches a ton of her hair in the grate. The vortex style one wouldn’t be nearly so bad to clear out if it didn’t have a vertical straight section on the outlet side, once the snakes been fed around it always clashes and half the time turns back on itself/pops out - i can just never get the snake by it.

I don’t have manholes that I can access to the best of my knowledge. There’s two scored areas outside in the concrete which look like they head towards my septic tank, and snow never lies on them so I assume that’s my waste outlets but can’t see any way of lifting them without damaging the concrete.

I do intend on getting pro’s out once lockdown is over (and also because I have a new downstairs bathroom for them to install), but right now I feel kind of let down by the original installer and then the guy who came out to fix things initially so want to get as much info as I can from pro’s online first.

I’ve included a picture of the top access waste which was fitted with all the unecessary elbows which even in my uneducated eyes I knew wasn’t great. He maybe routed it like that to save drilling through the joist, I don’t know. I was away from home working when the work was done and came home to the ceiling patched up.

I am confused on why if the shower has a trap, the bath has a trap and the sinks have traps that Im getting bad smells?

Thanks for all the help so far! It’s been great.
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Agree with all the above, except the 'dumb thought' paragraph. Whatever my be in the pipework beyond the trap, the trap should not allow these smells to pass back into the room.

Yes! This is confusing me aswell, I just posted above that if everything has traps, shower/bath/sinks then what’s causing me to get bad smells?

 

[Ric2013]

With regard to the downstairs bathroom, all I can imagine, if the smell is coming from that room, is that either there is something wrong with your waste water drainage system that is causing a positive pressure to develop and force air up past one or more of your traps and into your house, most likely when an upstairs toilet (if there is one) is flushed. If you were in the room when that happened, you'd hear it.

With regard to your shower trap, I'm wondering whether there is a pipework issue along the line that may be sucking out the water in the trap and leaving it unsealed (incidentally, this wouldn't be an issue with a silicone membrane trap, even if they will wear out... eventually), but that doesn't quite fit with the facts in that you seem to think the smell continues to rise from the shower trap while in use. Logically, even if the trap were being sucked dry, the constant trickle of water from the shower would refill the trap instantly.

I'm really interested to follow the further developments on this thread, as I'm now out of ideas and want to know how this ends...

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

With regard to the downstairs bathroom, all I can imagine, if the smell is coming from that room, is that either there is something wrong with your waste water drainage system that is causing a positive pressure to develop and force air up past one or more of your traps and into your house, most likely when an upstairs toilet (if there is one) is flushed. If you were in the room when that happened, you'd hear it.

With regard to your shower trap, I'm wondering whether there is a pipework issue along the line that may be sucking out the water in the trap and leaving it unsealed (incidentally, this wouldn't be an issue with a silicone membrane trap, even if they will wear out... eventually), but that doesn't quite fit with the facts in that you seem to think the smell continues to rise from the shower trap while in use. Logically, even if the trap were being sucked dry, the constant trickle of water from the shower would refill the trap instantly.

I'm really interested to follow the further developments on this thread, as I'm now out of ideas and want to know how this ends...

I’ve been flat out with work so haven’t been able to do much investigation work. If there is a positive pressure issue what can be done to remedy it? - would fitting anti siphon traps on sinks etc help?

What I have noted over the last 2 days is below:

• The eco chemical unblocker I tried did nothing.
• Tried snaking it again from the top (I’m determined to get this ) and didn’t get anything apart from a few tiny sludge bits because I couldn’t pass through the waste to get into the pipework.
• The upstairs shower room smell has died right down and practically back to normal. I don’t put this down to snaking, I think it coincides with the weather here cooling down this week and getting more windy.
• The downstairs bathroom is smelling worse.

I am still none the wiser what could be going on haha.

 

[Ric2013]

I’ve been flat out with work so haven’t been able to do much investigation work. If there is a positive pressure issue what can be done to remedy it? - would fitting anti siphon traps on sinks etc help?

What I have noted over the last 2 days is below:

• The eco chemical unblocker I tried did nothing.
• Tried snaking it again from the top (I’m determined to get this ) and didn’t get anything apart from a few tiny sludge bits because I couldn’t pass through the waste to get into the pipework.
• The upstairs shower room smell has died right down and practically back to normal. I don’t put this down to snaking, I think it coincides with the weather here cooling down this week and getting more windy.
• The downstairs bathroom is smelling worse.

I am still none the wiser what could be going on haha.

The issue some of us are suspecting with regard to positive pressure is that you have a "Durgo" or air admittance valve on your main soil and vent stack and that this has jammed shut. They do fail eventually, which is why they are never to be found boxed in somewhere inaccessible... oh wait.

Anti-siphon traps... Okay. Let's say you have a washbasin somewhere remote with a long pipe run, or the pipe run is steeper than it should be, or shared by more than one appliance. Bad plumbing basically. Result is the water in the trap gets sucked out by the water running down the pipe and then smells come up. You call one of us out and we say that you've now covered all the pipework in tiling etc and that putting it really right is going to cost a fortune. So that would be when we fit an anti-siphon trap. The most common types incorporate an air-inlet valve or a silicone bladder. They will wear out eventually and are a bit noisy, but it solves your smell issue for several years, so in the circumstances it's a good idea. The silicone bladder types will also prevent positive pressure being forced back into the room, but if you have a fault on your Durgo, that needs to be corrected first - if only because you can't get an anti-siphon trap for your WC.

One thought: you don't have a bidet, bath, washbasin etc that you very rarely use do you? Could be that the water in the associated trap has simply evaporated...

Personally, I'd suggest you tape up everything you aren't using with gaffer tape (not forgetting overflows) and try to find where the problem is coming from. If nothing else, you will avoid smells in the short term. I also think you will need to get a plumber in, but pre-investigative work may help him or her out and save time.