Powerflushing

[Riley]

Morning all just trying to see if I can start a conversation on "professional" powerflushing.

Went on the Kamco training course yesterday,which I have to say is extremely good, definitely learned some stuff I didn't know so well worth the trip.

I have several systems coming up that are badly in need of flushing, I have a kamco machine now but am sadly bereft of testing equipment.

What are people's thoughts re things like PH and TDS meters?? Do you get what you pay for ???

i was borrowing meters from my mate previously and he got them both in a set for about £20. PH was pretty much spot on when compared to litmus paper and TDS gave readings within tolerance when compared to tap water once system cleaned?? Would we just be talking the spread of readings i.e. On a cheap set it would be a much narrower less precise scale??? I know the old adage of buy cheap buy twice but how inaccurate can these things be??

im just trying to find if anyone knows of a testing set that is of a suitable quality with a competitive price (Ray???). Or what people's thoughts are on water testing equipment

cheers

 

[joni os]

Systems got flushed before TDS meters, in the same way that radiators were balanced before infrared non contact thermo guns became readily available. However, when selling a service, meeting clients expectations must be a consideration. A cheap <£10 TDS meter and strip of litmus papers will meet expectations, leaving time and money to be invested in equipment of greater use to the flushing process.

 

[Riley]

Totally see your point mate. My kind of overall feel with flushing though is that people like to see something for their money. That's why I always use a magnacleanse in sequence with powerflushing to show the muck being pulled from the system. I guess it's smoke and mirrors, you and I both know that if the Magnacleanse wasn't there the muck would just be going down the drain but when the customer can see in front of them the benefit to the flush they are more likely to trust your judgement and you as a business and hopefully generate more work. In addition with this seemingly never ending spate of manufactures trying to wriggle out of guarantees by using these meters and recording it on some form of certificate you are kind of covering all bases and showing that you have taken the flush and any subsequent install seriously. Once again I know you could just make up the figures but these are likely to be the people that don't commission boilers properly and probably aren't even Gas Safe to do it in the first place. I am all about being professional and looking professional. As well as covering my arse

 

[Riley]

Sorry to bump but any other thoughts guys. Cheers Joni. Two old boys At my merchants told me that they never bother with water testing, but these were the same two know alls that were in there bending the owners ear that their warranties claims were Being dismissed by manufacturers. I just like belt and braces. I don't care if a job takes me an hour or two longer if I know it's right

 

[Rickster123]

Are you planning on going into the powerflushing in a big way? What chems are you planning on using?

 

[Riley]

Not massive scale but it's another string to my bow and I do have. Lots of queries about them

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Tbh don't test as don't see the point unless you want to empty your bank account on testing stuff also another thing to get calibrated

If you want to invest in something go for a decent thermal imaging cam

 

[Riley]

Yeah i did think that Shaun. Someone said the ones that flush into your phone aren't bD

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yeah i did think that Shaun. Someone said the ones that flush into your phone aren't bD

Flur one very good but not good if you have a case as you need to remove the case for it to work

 

[Last Plumber]

I used to use an acidic cleaner followed by neutralising chemic after and test with PH paper.

Caused a few issues though and now i'm back to good old F3 and F1

Occasionally use Kamco machine but not as often. Only used now if someone specifically needs it or boiler is busted and its urgent.

I find the old ways are good. F3, leave it in a week and get it hot then drop it out.

 

[Riley]

More often than not mine are boiler swaps with a busted boiler so no heat. Surely we should still be testing that there is a change in the water? Going back to the cover my arse comment. I know several guys that plug in the powerflusher then literally don't touch the system other than to change direction and dump the dirty water out. Do we not owe our customers a bit more in terms of service if we are charging a decent wedge??

 

[ShaunCorbs]

More often than not mine are boiler swaps with a busted boiler so no heat. Surely we should still be testing that there is a change in the water? Going back to the cover my arse comment. I know several guys that plug in the powerflusher then literally don't touch the system other than to change direction and dump the dirty water out. Do we not owe our customers a bit more in terms of service if we are charging a decent wedge??

The thing is how many people other than bg do a power flush on a swap if no problems

I don't just use big mag and x800 or adey and run for 2-3 hours

It comes down to who your competition and what are they pricing for

 

[Riley]

Sorry mate that wasn't a dig at anyone on here I'm just trying to market the service but ensure that I offer it in as professional a way as I can. I have a small estate by me which I assume was all installed by the same guy and 12 years down the line all bar 3 out of 20 something houses have extremely poorly installed open vented systems which are filthy. eight or nine of them have the same landlord and he has asked for them all to be sorted properly so that is a good little earner but I want to obviously correct the systems first and then give him something in terms of works carried out and comparative cleanliness before and after figures if you will. I may be over thinking it as any of us here would be able to clearly see the difference between a clean and a dirty system but I just wonder if the customer should expect more?? Maybe not?!?!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry mate that wasn't a dig at anyone on here I'm just trying to market the service but ensure that I offer it in as professional a way as I can. I have a small estate by me which I assume was all installed by the same guy and 12 years down the line all bar 3 out of 20 something houses have extremely poorly installed open vented systems which are filthy. eight or nine of them have the same landlord and he has asked for them all to be sorted properly so that is a good little earner but I want to obviously correct the systems first and then give him something in terms of works carried out and comparative cleanliness before and after figures if you will. I may be over thinking it as any of us here would be able to clearly see the difference between a clean and a dirty system but I just wonder if the customer should expect more?? Maybe not?!?!

the thing you have to think of will he understand all the td values or a pic that he can see of sludge in the rads

 

[Rickster123]

I didn't know you had such strong morals Riley!

Was gonna offer you some knocked off chems but I'll keep my gob shut...

 

[Last Plumber]

More often than not mine are boiler swaps with a busted boiler so no heat. Surely we should still be testing that there is a change in the water? Going back to the cover my arse comment. I know several guys that plug in the powerflusher then literally don't touch the system other than to change direction and dump the dirty water out. Do we not owe our customers a bit more in terms of service if we are charging a decent wedge??

I only charge the time it takes and chemic used If I don't use machine.

If I use it it's done as you would have learnt on course. proper job and I charge the day because it will take a day to do it properly and the machine gets charged for too,

In my experience power flushing can cause probs so I only do it if it really needs it.

Also, the water in my area is really good so luckily we don't have any major issues.

If system is installed correctly there's no real issue with corrosion.

 

[Last Plumber]

I did find that the Acid cleaner was a nightmare though.

One job I did years ago, I'm flushing system and machine levels started dropping so I topped it up but they kept falling, this is a good half way into job by the way and using Acid.

I switched off and ran up into loft thinking Stop end had come off vent pipe but no !

Run around house, sweating looking for where water was going.

The boiler must have been on the verge of leaking through heat ex ( oil Boiler ). and the Acid and higher pressure cleaned out the corrosion inside the boiler and it started peeing out the side. Floor wet, Acidic water, grumpy customer......Felt like crying. End of acid cleaners.

 

[Riley]

I didn't know you had such strong morals Riley!

Was gonna offer you some knocked off chems but I'll keep my gob shut...

There's morals and good business mate

 

[Riley]

the thing you have to think of will he understand all the td values or a pic that he can see of sludge in the rads

You make a very good point mate. I'm kind of thinking half customer half manufacturer as They should obviously understand the water requirements and I can prove to them that what I've done meets there requirements

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You make a very good point mate. I'm kind of thinking half customer half manufacturer as They should obviously understand the water requirements and I can prove to them that what I've done meets there requirements

In manufacturing terms they won't care as seen before they slated the water quality and it was fine but they still didn't support warrenty

So I read it as they don't offer warrenty full stop and all you can do is your best

 

[Riley]

No that's fair enough mate to be honest this is the sort of discussion I was hoping for so thanks all

 

[rpm]

At the very least if the customer knows you have done it and they have the data then it takes you out of the blame game if the boiler manufacture refuses to honour the warranty plus I guess it could help you in the word of mouth recommendation sense.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

At the very least if the customer knows you have done it and they have the data then it takes you out of the blame game if the boiler manufacture refuses to honour the warranty plus I guess it could help you in the word of mouth recommendation sense.

But also could go the other way if they believe the manufacturer??

 

[rpm]

But also could go the other way if they believe the manufacturer??

?, explain more.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

?, explain more.

If the manufacturer says its hasn't been flushed proper and they believe them over you could have the reverse effect on your respect and customer satisfaction

 

[rpm]

If the manufacturer says its hasn't been flushed proper and they believe them over you could have the reverse effect on your respect and customer satisfaction

Ok with you now. But if customer see`s you in the house with the machine running for however long and you give them a copy of the before and after level readings in the invoice surely that and a nice new boiler helps you. Not saying your bulletproof but every little bit helps.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ok with you now. But if customer see`s you in the house with the machine running for however long and you give them a copy of the before and after level readings in the invoice surely that and a nice new boiler helps you. Not saying your bulletproof but every little bit helps.

True but again it's like why people keep going with British Gas instead of a local engy

 

[rpm]

True but again it's like why people keep going with British Gas instead of a local engy

Reckon there are 4 reasons

It`s down to a name they feel they can trust & the power of advertising, the dread of selecting from unknown indies and ignorance on their part.

 

[Old Account]

I used to use an acidic cleaner followed by neutralising chemic after and test with PH paper.

Caused a few issues though and now i'm back to good old F3 and F1

Occasionally use Kamco machine but not as often. Only used now if someone specifically needs it or boiler is busted and its urgent.

I find the old ways are good. F3, leave it in a week and get it hot then drop it out.

Is for you F3 / F1 the best chemicals ? Hat about sentinel or mac ?

 

[Riley]

As long as they're buildcert passed then they should be fine

 

[Old Account]

How about draining and re filling the system ... I do not think that the majority of us plumbers puts a x100 inhibitor bottle inside the system after it's been drained.

I always carry things like that with me to do so but I don't think a lot of us doing it

 

[Riley]

I don't know mate the majority of people on here always remind a DIYer to do it I would be surprised if they didn't do it themselves

 

[Last Plumber]

Is for you F3 / F1 the best chemicals ? Hat about sentinel or mac ?

Yes. Fernox has been tried and tested for years now and I think it's the best, Sentinal is a close second in my opinion But these cheapo Shop Local type things are garbage IMO

 

[Old Account]

I don't know mate the majority of people on here always remind a DIYer to do it I would be surprised if they didn't do it themselves

Riley ,I have seen and experienced a lot of different engineers that they do not care much. Nowadays a lot of people work in quantity ways which means : going to a customer / in and out / getting paid and never go back. That's their way of doing a business.

The engineers who wants to build a good company with good reputation are different

 

[Riley]

That's the thing my friend. As long as I'm doing it properly others can do what they want :smile: