Power Flushing, warranty & cleanliness of system

[Frankenstein]

I've now had several quotes from company reps for my replacement boiler. All of the installers say that my system needs to be flushed prior to installation of the new boiler (chemical or power I'm not debating on the type of flush).

I've been told that if my boiler has a problem within the warranty period then then the manufacturer will probably test the system to see if its dirty - fair enough.

So I asked a company rep that if a manufacturer can test my system to determine if its dirty, then how does the installer know when the flush has done its job - is there a test for clean as there is a test for dirty, or is there a threshold of some sort for the level of dirtiness (assuming that perfect cleanliness is not achievable)?

The reply was: 'it will be flushed until its clean'.

So here's my question (and i will try to be as specific as I can):

If there's a way to test if the system is dirty, is there a way to test it if its clean following the flush?

The rep seemed quite knowledgeable but but he didn't understand what I meant when I asked about the modulation ratio of a boiler, and I couldn't press him much about the flushing. As I'm still new to understanding boilers, I find it difficult to determine how good some of these reps are or whether I'm asking them the right questions.

 

[Scott_D]

Send a sample away for anaylsis

 

[Ray Stafford]

There isn't a specific threshold, but the general indicators are:

• Cold spots on radiators (either detectable to the touch, or easily seen on a thermal imaging camera) indicate a build up of various undesirable deposits. A radiator giving even heat output across the entire surface is generally clean
• Colour and clarity of water
• Whether a magnetic filter is still gathering debris after multiple passes

Then there are chemical tests for the presence of corrosion inhibitors. Unfortunately, there are several different chemical approaches to corrosion inhibition, and there is no universal test. However, the absence of inhibitor does not make the system water dirty of itself - it is simply an indicator that the system may well deteriorate in the future.

 

[Frankenstein]

Send a sample away for anaylsis

Do I not get an analysis report before and after my system has been flushed? I would have thought that some sort of certificate to show the following would be quite useful;

a) Date/proof of flushing
b) Analysis of sample before flushing
c) Analysis of sample after flushing

 

[Frankenstein]

There isn't a specific threshold, but the general indicators are:

• Cold spots on radiators (either detectable to the touch, or easily seen on a thermal imaging camera) indicate a build up of various undesirable deposits. A radiator giving even heat output across the entire surface is generally clean
• Colour and clarity of water
• Whether a magnetic filter is still gathering debris after multiple passes

Then there are chemical tests for the presence of corrosion inhibitors. Unfortunately, there are several different chemical approaches to corrosion inhibition, and there is no universal test. However, the absence of inhibitor does not make the system water dirty of itself - it is simply an indicator that the system may well deteriorate in the future.

Looks like some companies could have a lot of wriggle room to void a warranty! Maybe Worcester Bosch is the way to go - they seem to have good reputation for upholding their warranties.

Thank you!

 

[Scott_D]

Do I not get an analysis report before and after my system has been flushed? I would have thought that some sort of certificate to show the following would be quite useful;

a) Date/proof of flushing
b) Analysis of sample before flushing
c) Analysis of sample after flushing

You can anything you are prepared to pay for.

 

[Masood]

If there's a way to test if the system is dirty, is there a way to test it if its clean following the flush?

Yes, it's the same set of tests. TDS, turbidity, pH. If you want to get really technical, you can send samples off to be analysed.

BS 7593:2006 does not give tolerances/thresholds but a good rule of thumb is that if the system water is within 10% of mains water in the area then the system is clean. The European standards (VDI2035, SWKI, ÖNORM) are more specific.

Contrary to what you've read Worcester are notorious for water quality sampling and using that as a reason to void warranties. Bizarrely, they will often still carry out a free repair as a goodwill gesture.

As for the reply the "it'll be flushed until clean" - that's actually as good as it needs to be. An experienced person can tell visually when the water is close to mains quality. He/she will know how to flush thoroughly so will be certain that no deposits have been left in areas of sluggish circulation (there's a technique for dislodging them that the right equipment, used correctly, will shift) and then all that remains is to do the three tests I mentioned before.

I really think you're going about things the wrong way - you risk alienating good people by interrogating them. It sets a tone of mistrust and suspicion. Find companies with excellent reputations locally, and trust them - they won't have gained good reputations for nothing!

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Do I not get an analysis report before and after my system has been flushed? I would have thought that some sort of certificate to show the following would be quite useful;

a) Date/proof of flushing
b) Analysis of sample before flushing
c) Analysis of sample after flushing

Yeah right

Analysis report?

 

[Masood]

Yeah right

Analysis report?

There are firms that do analysis but they're not cheap, and it would make the job drag out. One visit to take a sample, then a week to 10 days waiting for results, then flush & install, then wait another week to 10 days for the results.

If I were working to that spec, with the aim of making it absolutely impossible for manufacturer to blame water quality, I would want the test results back before commissioning the boiler! That's a long time with no heat & hot water...

 

[rocketmanbkk]

There are firms that do analysis but they're not cheap, and it would make the job drag out. One visit to take a sample, then a week to 10 days waiting for results, then flush & install, then wait another week to 10 days for the results.

If I were working to that spec, with the aim of making it absolutely impossible for manufacturer to blame water quality, I would want the test results back before commissioning the boiler! That's a long time with no heat & hot water...

Agreed & you'd never win a job!!

 

[rpm]

I`d want new boiler, new radiators, new pipes and new water with all the chemicals available.

 

[Riley]

To be honest it might be easier if the op did that. Re-pipe and new radiators then you're starting with a clean canvas aren't you

 

[rocketmanbkk]

To be honest it might be easier if the op did that. Re-pipe and new radiators then you're starting with a clean canvas aren't you

Agreed

 

[Masood]

To be honest it might be easier if the op did that. Re-pipe and new radiators then you're starting with a clean canvas aren't you

Or accept that a good powerflush, conscientiously done, is enough to keep good manufacturers happy! They are not going to alienate their customer base for no good reason - only if the system is seriously filthy.

Intergas are not bothered at all, Vaillant and Ideal tech have both said that if installed by an accredited engineer, they won't refuse a warranty claim but will insist on a flush being done and evidence provided in order to keep the warranty valid after the first visit. An invoice for a flush would be good enough evidence.

 

[Frankenstein]

It just so happens that as I type I'm waiting for another rep - he'll be here in about 20 mins. I'll quizz him (gently) on the flushing issue and warranty. His company is one of the big guns so I'm not too worried if I scare him.

In summary (in general) it looks like:

Qualitative assessment of flush results from installer
Quantitative assessment of system from company for any warranty issues

Looks like I have to keep up with the servicing - thanks for the input.

 

[Riley]

Annual service is an absolute must to maintain warranty!!!!

 

[rpm]

Tell us how many radiators over what 2 floors? Then maybe someone can give an indication of how long it should take them on average.

 

[lame plumber]

wht do you get reps in, you need to speak to installers and operators who do the work, ie they know what they are talking about. Just out of interest, if you go on holiday and fly abroad, do you expect to interview the pilot and flight crew before take off, or do you assume they know what they are doing? You might find life easy just to get some quotes and review previous work of potential installers.

 

[Scott_D]

Can you post a few of the quotes?

 

[Masood]

Just out of interest, if you go on holiday and fly abroad, do you expect to interview the pilot and flight crew before take off

Chortle! That made me laugh! OP does seem to come across like that!

 

[Frankenstein]

wht do you get reps in, you need to speak to installers and operators who do the work, ie they know what they are talking about. Just out of interest, if you go on holiday and fly abroad, do you expect to interview the pilot and flight crew before take off, or do you assume they know what they are doing? You might find life easy just to get some quotes and review previous work of potential installers.

I agree but when I ask a company to provide me with a quote I can't choose who they send. One of the first things which I try to ascertain is the suitability of the person who provides the quote. It turns out that the best rep used to be an installer. The most unsuitable person used work in a bank and had no practical experience in plumbing (I won't mention the name of the company that sent him).

 

[Frankenstein]

Can you post a few of the quotes?

Straight swap of a heat only boiler which includes all the usual work + 10 year warranty.

Prices range from £3,000 to £3700.

Not sure it this is normal but I'll take the prices to my usual gas service chap and see what he thinks - unfortunately he can't do it because he doesn't accept credit cards (which I want to use to take advantage of a 27 month interest free loan).

 

[thereisawizza]

Straight swap of a heat only boiler which includes all the usual work + 10 year warranty.

Prices range from £3,000 to £3700.

Not sure it this is normal but I'll take the prices to my usual gas service chap and see what he thinks - unfortunately he can't do it because he doesn't accept credit cards (which I want to use to take advantage of a 27 month interest free loan).

Best make sure you at least give him a "drink" then!

 

[lame plumber]

Blimey, I'll pop up and stay overnight in a posh hotel for that money on a heat only swap you really need to get your regular lad to quote and borrow the money elsewhere

 

[Frankenstein]

Blimey, I'll pop up and stay overnight in a posh hotel for that money on a heat only swap you really need to get your regular lad to quote and borrow the money elsewhere

This could happen. These are the quotes from the big boys. I have my first visit from the local plumbers tomorrow morning. It'll be interesting to see the differences!

 

[Scott_D]

Straight swap of a heat only boiler which includes all the usual work + 10 year warranty.

Prices range from £3,000 to £3700.

Not sure it this is normal but I'll take the prices to my usual gas service chap and see what he thinks - unfortunately he can't do it because he doesn't accept credit cards (which I want to use to take advantage of a 27 month interest free loan).

What make& model boiler
What filter
What type of flush
Any controls upgrades or trvs?

 

[Masood]

Blimey, I'll pop up and stay overnight in a posh hotel for that money on a heat only swap you really need to get your regular lad to quote and borrow the money elsewhere

Southampton is only an hour and a half from mine. I'll kip in the van and fit you an Ideal Vogue for that. 10 year warranty, stainless heat exchanger, 10:1 modulation ratio.

And I have my own water test kit...

 

[Frankenstein]

What make& model boiler
What filter
What type of flush
Any controls upgrades or trvs?

Vaillant Ecotec Plus 415
TF1 Filter
Power Flush (11 rads)
No controls, No TRVs
Installation of Plume kit
A few other bits & bobs

 

[SimonG]

So spending money and skimping on controls and trv's? Worth doing, unless you have them.

 

[Rickster123]

The most unsuitable person used work in a bank and had no practical experience in plumbing (I won't mention the name of the company that sent him).

Wasn't a chap called Luke was it?? Ex bank manager?!

 

[Masood]

No controls, No TRVs

Gobsmacked! These have far more impact on energy use than modulation ratio. Also, without time and temperature controls and TRVs, your new installation will not be Part L compliant.

Unless you're re-using old ones?

 

[Allgoode]

Madness if not looking to upgrade ctrls/trv's & poss rads if very old.

Everything I fit has weather comp & programmable rf controls by same manufacturer as the guarantee extends across everything so no worries for the 7 or 10 years that they are under warranty as long as they are serviced annually.

The controls are really easy to understand for all my customers and everyone who has had a system upgrade or install comments on the difference it all makes to the overall package both in running costs and real home temp comfort levels.

Invest a little bit extra and get best controls/sensors you can ideally from boiler manufacturer & sit back and enjoy the comfort & peace of mind of a good long warranty,

Thanks,

Andy

 

[rocketmanbkk]

How many quotes are you having?

There be an upgraded boiler by the time you decide then the quoted will start over.

 

[GSAL]

It's seems that you'll save more money by using your local Engineere (who you know and trust) than you will in interest with the interest free credit card.

Is it worth getting a quote from him and talking to the bank? If you ask him you maybe able to pay for the materials at the merchant with the card.

I'm sure you'll save money and get a lot more this way.